She Oshawa Cimes 86 King St. E., Oshawa, Ontario Published by Canadian Newspapers Company Limited T. L. Wilson, Publisher E. C. Prince, Associate Publisher OSHAWA, ONTARIO, FRIDAY, DECEMBER 8, 1967 Divorce, Canadian Style Major Breakthrough The legislation for divorce reform introduced-by the Pearson govern- ment this week which has already gained such wide commendation is highly significant in many aspects. In itself, the proposal for reform is a major breakthrough from the anachronisms of nineteenth century law which has so long bedevilled Canadians and their courts. In this respect significance lies in the evidence that a government would dare to suggest such radical changes and that it would be ap- plauded for doing so. As in all Christian countries, most marriages have succeeded while others have not. Yet in Canada for those who have been unsuccessful the grief and suffering has been a great deal graver. Our law, outmoded and cruel, considered only adultery as legal grounds for divorce. The Senate-Commons committee on divorce took a humanitarian and realistic view of the sad situation. Its major contribution was the emphasis it placed on the marriage- breakdown dilemma. While recogniz- ing that marriage ties should be sacred the committee also took into account that husbands and wives are human. Proper consideration was given to circumstances other than adultery that can destroy a marriage. Desertion, physical and mental cruelty, incurable drug or alcohol addiction, imprisonment for a total of at least three years during a preceding five; these should be causes for legally ending a marriage the committee recommended. Without hedging or watering them down, the government has proposed that these offences con stitute marriage breakdown and should be grounds, in law, for di- vorce. The courageous and compas- sionate action is worthy of the come mendation and support it is receive ing in the Commons and throughout Canada. The divorce reform bill must be classed, in the true sense, as wel- fare legislation of the highest order. And the significance not to be overlooked is that such worth- while welfare legislation can "be instituted without the necessity of a multi-million dollar subsidy by tax- payers. If historians look back with any kindness on the Pearson Years it will be to note the considerable amount of Jegislation such as this divorce bill that the prime minister has placed on the law books of Canada. Vital Vote In Whitby The electors of the Town and Township of Whitby will have the opportunity this Saturday to exer- cise their franchise in the election of a reeve, council, board of educa- tion and public utility commission of the Town of Whitby which comes into existence Jan. 1. The Whitby Chamber of Com- merce is to be congratulated on its enterprise and public interest in sponsoring meetings in Brooklin, the corridor area and the present town to afford residents of these areas to hear the candidates pre- sent their platforms. With few ex- ceptions the candidates have availed themselves of the facilities and have given a good account of themselves. Unfortunately few electors have availed themselves of the chance to hear the 1967 members of the two councils and boards give an account of their stewardship and to explain 'Fhe Gaara mes Oshawo, Ontario Lc Sonic navel SUBSCRIPTION RATES Whitby Gazette ond 3) is published daily olidays excepted ly Newspaper Publish- Press Audit Bureou Press is exclusively ction of oll news ted to it er to The ind also the local ts of special des- E shawe, Ontario Thomson Building, nto, Ontario; 640 ry, Prince Frenchman's Bay, Enniskillen, Claremont, Monchester, P 55c per week ef Ontario outside carrier OO per year. Other prov wealth Countries, es ond C $18.00 per yeor. U.S.A. and foreign $35.00 per year, OTTAWA REPORT what they plan to do in the year that lies ahead. Fewer than 50 have attended the meetings and some of these have been members of the families of the candidates. It is difficult to understand the apathy of residents of the area, However, this is nothing new as the meetings arranged earlier in the year to explain plans for the amal- gamation of the two municipalities were disappointingly small. An intensive door-to-door cam- paign has been conducted by many of the candidates. For that reason residents of the town and township cannot say they are unaware of the issues. Many complicated problems will face the elected civic bodies in the next two years. For that reason it behooves al] electors to turn out and cast their ballots in Saturday's election. The new Town of Whitby needs the best brains at its disposal, Other Editors' Views PLAUDITS FOR N.B. It is the enterprise of the New Brunswick government which should serve as a model. Here is a gov- ernment which didn't bait its muni- cipalities with wisecracks about cry- ing towels but which faced up to crisis and, miracle of miracles, did something about it. pressed by the pioneering of the British Columbias will stand im- government of New Brunswick and by the sagacity of its electorate. And, more than ever before, they have cause to ask when their own government will end its silly, spite- ful war with the municipalities and join the team, hs (Vancouver Sun) QUEEN'S PARK Bilingualism Advances In Ontario By DON O'HEARN TORONTO--At the time of writing there has been no com- ment from the government here on the report of the commission on bilingualism and bicultural- ism. But it is expected that gen- erally the government will be sympathetic to the report. In the last few years Ontario has taken big steps in advance ing French in the province in the field of education. And also there has been ac- tion to see. that government services are bilingual in areas with large French-Canadian population. Branches of government such as the provincial police and the department of family and social services have added many French-speaking members to their complements. There is no question, through these moves and through the at- titude expressed at the Confed- eration of Tomorrow confer- ence, that Premier Robarts is inclined to do what he can to add to the stature, and opportu- nity, of French-Ontarioans. RIGHTS BILL? There are two directions, how- ever, in which the government may not go along with the re- port, or not go the full distance, One is in entrenching , the constitution, The other is in the use of French in the legislature. Both are recommended by the commission. On the question of entrench- ment, the government's position will probably depend on just what is proposed. If it is only a question of a broad statement on rights then it might be agreeable. But it probably would be against a proposal that would define cer- tain -rights in accordance with set population ratios One reason for being against such a suggestion would be that it probably would be strongly opposed by some other proy- inces and could add to national disunity . PRACTICAL QUESTION On the use of French in the legislature, the objection would be on practical grounds, not against the use of the language in debates: This is practised now, though not to any great ex- tent The objection would come if it were suggested there should be dual translation facilities or publishing of sessional docu- ments. in French eS The argument against this, if it did appear, would be that the cost would be too high for any worth-while results. There are probably only half a dozen members in the house now who can speak in French, of course, and all of them are fluent in English, POINTED PARAGRAPHS Now and then a few hawks are heard cooing hoarsely, and a few doves are beginning to grow spurs, According to information se- cured by' the Soviet through landing a spacecraft on Venus, nothing favorable can be said about this planet except that it is the most brilliant and beauti- ful of all the planets when seen from earth as a morning or eve- ning 'star', BIBLE "For God so loved the world, that he gave-his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 So much depends on what we believe about and do with this wonderful truth. "He that be- lieveth on the Son hath life, he that believeth not shall not see life, but the wrath of God abid- eth on him." By THAT'S A BAD LOOKING RASH .. . FOREIGN AFFAIRS ANALYSIS » Makarios Turns Tables By PHILIP DEANE Foreign Affairs Analyst The Turks, according to a New York Times report from Ankara, have felt their man- hood had been set in doubt be- cause they submitted to pres- sure from Lyndon Johnson in 1964 and did not carry out their threats to invade Cyprus that year. They have been saying that they saw in the 1967 crisis a chance to prove they were masters of their own fate, not American puppets, and only agreed to call off their threaten- ing invasion of Cyprus if Greece made concessions first and pulled out of the island the 12,- 000 troops she had placed there as a deterrent against. Turkish invasion, The Turks have won this concession, but already crafty Archbishop Makarios is turning the tables on them by using for his own ends the basic Turkish argument against the union of Cyprus. with Greece, thus setting up another, future round of trouble. When the Greek n.ajority on €yprus-sought independence and union with Greece after the Second World War, the Turks objected that Greece might go Communist and that a Greek Cyprus would then be a deadly threat, turning Turkey's de- fences against Russia. MOSCOW SILENT Greece now has a fascist mill- tary junta which could not hope for help from Russia in the lat- est crisis--hence Moscow's con- spicuous silence in the recent crisis. But there is a Communist party on Cyprus, vocal and well organized. If jt ever took power, it could expect Russia to exer- cise pressure against any Turk- ish attempt to invade the island. President Makarios has just said that he cannot disband his national guard for fear his domestic Communists might take over power. If the Turks dismiss this Ma- karios argument they will be saying, in effect, that they do not fear communism on Cyprus --and what happens then to their basic case for objecting to the union of a predominantly Greek island with Greece? Even if they did not care about invali- dating their own arguments, the Turks have to care about the ef- fect Makarios' present position will have on the U.S. m a Patrick Nicholson Where Were Other 238 When Vote Called? OTTAWA -- This column de- scribed how the Pearson gov- ernment was humbled over the one. bill -- to raise letter postal rates from a nickel to six cents, The measure was imperiously fiung out by a vote of 14 to 1l.A 26th MP was in the chair so did not vote. But where were the other 238 MPs? The following. morning the Liberal parliamentary group was scheduled to hold its weekly, secret caucus meeting; so the aftermath of the debacle was predictable. Prime Minister Pearson gave his followers hell with a savage tongue-lashing in the secret meeting. All MPs, especially cabinet ministers, should realize that their prime duty as parliamen- tarians is to attend the business of the House, he told his audi- ence. If MPs, and especially cabinet ministers, insist on stay- ing at home or travel round the country making speeches, he > ~~ wontinued, rather than perform their parliamentary duties, then they should resign. But Lester Pearson has a powerful sense of humor, and this led him to close his chas- tisement with a quip. "Thank heavens that de Gaulle and the Estates General in Montreal and the Confederation of Tomor- row Conference in Toronto are taking up all the newspaper headlines," he said. "That means that the public are not told about the terrible mess we are making in Ottawa." green House Leader Allan Mac- Led by Eachen's shrewd parliamentary visitors nose had led him to expect the pass; surprise vote: he had ordered the Liberal whips to have MPs ready to vote. But his order was disregarded--with the result that the government was defeat- ed and humbled. But since it was only a procedural vote with the House in committee, it did not entail the resignation of the itors." government or the dissolution of Cote Parliament. present Allan MacEachen saw the vote. funny side of the episode. In the government lobby, he remarked to me that it would make a good topic for a sportswriter, along these lines: "Some fancy running by the Stanfield Blues and a fumble by the Pearson Reds splattered the turf of the arena last night. From our van- tage point in the bleachers, it was difficult to see whether the red "spots on the green sword was actually blood the reflections of Grigeted faces. Twinkleto Starr, the threw" procedural in quarterback "Mack the Knife' MacEachen, the ball was tossed to Carrier Cote, but the ball was dropped and the dismayed Lib- erals soon found the scoreboard reading 14-11 in favor.of the vis+ THE MISSING MPs Other Liberals present Jack Commons or simply less the absence of Grit wa, cant Parliament, at were Jim Brown, John Stewart, Roxburgh, Steve Otto and Messrs Laniel, Legault, Trem- blay, ditiste C. A. Gauthier voted with them. Conservatives who voted were Mike Starr, Bob Stanfield, Ernie Pascoe, Ed Nasserden, Messrs. Madill, More, Danforth, Stefanson, Southam. New Democrats Bert Herridge voted with them. Where were MPs, Langlois, and Ethier. Cre- Reynold Rapp, Dick Bell and McKinley and and Stan Knowles the other 238 at that vote attended by than 10 per cent of our MPs? About 95 were out of Otta- most of dawdling over their dinner. But this was to be a signifi- the others were and impressive session of which Prime Minister Pearson promised "Forty-six lays of legislation, processing 40 essential pieces of was the only minister legislation." for that microscopic I guess those red splotches were really Grit red faces, The archbishop was being pressed last week by an Ameri- can special envoy to disband the Greek Cypriot national guard-- which must not be confused with the troops from mainland Greece that now are being with- drawn. The disbanding of the guard was a Turkish demand. Now the archbishop is making it unmistakably clear that if he is pushed that far, he might fall and might be replaced by anoth- er government which will al the very least collaborate with Greek Cypriot Communists and seek support from the Soviet Union against Turkey. In this context, can Washing- ton continue pressing Makarios to accept every last Turkish condition, especially the key condition of disbanding his troops? The Turks will have to think of some other way of eliminating the military advan- tage the Greek majority has over the Turkish minority on Cyprus, and this will set off the next crisis, 'Hunters' Plan To Liberate Canada Misfired, Fatally By BOB BOWMAN Sir John A. Macdonald did not lose many political battles, but he was not always successful as a lawyer. On Dec. 8, 1838, be- fore. he went into politics, eight of his clients were hanged at Kingston, Ont. It should be added, in fairness, that he had no chance to win, but did his best to help some unfortunate men who had been misled into attacking Canada. They were members of a se- cret organization called "The Hunters' mostly recruited in the U.S.A. Many people there still believed that Canadians wanted 'to be liberated from Britain and the Lower Canada rebel leader, Robert Nelson, had the bright idea of forming the 'Hunters' Lodges". There were cells along the border. Each local group was comman4- ed by a 'Snowshoe' who report- ed to a 'Beaver'. There were ranks above them, and the su- preme commander was called "Grand Eagle'. It was decided to divide Upper and Lower Canada by at- tacking Prescott, Ontario, The commander of the force was TODAY IN HISTORY By THE CANADIAN PRESS Dee. 8, 1967 William Lyon Mackenzie, organizer of the rebellion in Upper Canada, fled 130 years .ago today--in 1837-- after the lieutenant-gover- nor and the militia defeated the rebels at Montgomery's Tavern, near Toronto. A price was put on Macken- zie's head for his capture but he escaped to the United States. Mackenzie returned in 1849 under amnesty but never regained a following. 1865--Jean Sibelius was born. 1925--Adolf Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, was published. First World War Fifty years ago today--in 1917--Jerusalem was. cap- tured by Gen. Sir Edmund Allenby's. frees; the Portuguese government re- signed; Ecuador severed re- lations with Germany; the Austrian battleship Wien was sunk by Italian torpedo boats in Trieste harbor. Second World War Twenty-five years ago to- day--in 1942--Lt.-Gen. Dwight Eisenhower an- nounced Dakar was given over to the United States navies and air forces; RAF and RCAF bombers at- tacked Turin, in northern Italy, for the fifth time in a month; Gen. Francisco Franco affirmed his solidari- ty with Germany and Italy, John Birge but he suddenly sus- tained a convenient stomach- ache 'as the invaders neared their objective and went ashore at Ogdensburg, N.Y. A former Polish officer, Von Schultz, took over the leadership and cap- tured several buildings and a windmill. Fighting lasted for several days until government forces arrived with 18-pounder guns and it was all over. SENTENCED TO DEATH The Americans had been led to believe that Canadians would flock to their support when they landed. This did not happen. They had ,also been promised land in Canada. After their cap- ture they were taken to King- ston, put on trial, and sentenced to death. Only eight, including the brave Von Schultz, were ac- tually executed. OTHER DEC. 8 EVENTS: 1658--Francois Laval was or- dained Bishop of Petrea 'before Jeaving for Canada. \ 1812--Generals Porter And Smyth fought a duel but their seconds '"'fixed" their pistols: 1852--Laval University at Quebec received a Royal Char- ter. 1891--Canada placed tariff on fish from Newfoundland in re- taliation for Newfoundland re- fusing to supply Canadian fish- ermen with bait. 1897--Pope Leo XIV urged Roman Catholics to accept Man- itoba Separate School settle- ment. 1902--Cable service opened between Vancouver and Austra- lia international Nickel Com- pany was formed. 1913 -- Order-in-Council prohi- bited landing of skilled or uns- killed labor at B.C, ports. ¥ YEARS AGO 20 YEARS AGO, Dec, 8, 1947 A former Wing-Commander in the RCAF, Frank M. Buchanan, of Gibbons St. will be present- ed with the insignia of a Mem- ber (Military Division) of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire. Thmas Richardson was hon- ored by officials and staff of the Metropolitan Life on his 25th anniversary with the company. 35 YEARS AGO, Dec. 8, 1932 The Oshawa Public Welfare campaign is under way with an objective of $25,000. Af the close of the first day the ther- mometer at the Four Corners registered $5,000. The first of the new 1933 Gen- eral Motors cars, a McLaughlin Buick, that the public helped design, rolled off the assembly line today, GOOD EVENING New Set-up On Way Adult Re-training By JACK GEARIN of The Times Staff THIS I8 A revolutionary age for Education. Don't be surprised if the On- tario Manpower Re-training Program in Oshawa has an en- tirely new set-up next year. A big step was taken this week at a meeting between the Board of Education's 12-man advisory committee and Dur- ham College. The latter agreed to ask the Provincial government's De. partment of Applied Arts and Technology for permission to operate OMRP here in connec- tion with the college on a site adjacent to Durham. Director of the Queen's Park Department is Norman Sisco, former princi- pal of the Dr. F. J. Donevan Collegiate here. ' Chairman John Larmond of the Advisory committee and George L. Roberts, the City's superintendent of Secondary Schools, were both optimistic that the request would be granted. This would mean that the vro- vincial department would sub- sidize fully the proposed new OMRP centre, subject of so much controversy between the board and OMRP headquarters in Toronto during the past few months. ONTARIO COUNTY education officials, including those in Osh- awa, are still waiting anxiously for word from Queen's Park about the announced 1969 dead- line for reducing the number of school boards. The best guess around the Board of Education this week was that Education Minister Davis would make some clari- fication on the matter in an early speech. THE EVERYDAY JOB of a magistrate is not an easy one at best. There are rewards, but the work-load is heavy and where else is there such constant ex- posure to human misery, emo- tional pressure? The job of dispensing justice on a day-to-day basis at the police court level can be frus- trating, exhaustive. It can also take a heavy toll on the health of its practitioners. Such was the case of Magis- trate Frank S. Ebbs, a sensitive and kindly man who liked to give those who appeared before him the benefit of any reason- able doubt. He would proudly tell how "some of my grads" had settled down and become "useful citizens' after constant- ly running afoul of the law. When Frank Ebbs found his work depressing, he frequently found escape in what he called "the wonderful world of Sports', for which he had a deep affection, one which pre- dated to his Ottawa college days. Joseph Mangan, QC, of Oshawa, attended college and law school with Magistrate Ebbs. He said the latter was the best junior athlete in Osh- awa, despite his small physical stature, in the 1914 era ('He played shortstop well, was a top track and field star and was a good football player," said Mr. Mangan.) Frank Ebbs was a die-hard Ottawa Roughriders fan who did -not take kindly to his teams' defeats. His idea of the perfect holiday was to fol- low the major league teams around the Florida grapefruit circuit. Magistrate Donald Dodds said this week: "I understand that Judge Ebbs, in terms of sery- ice, was the senior magistrate in the Province of Ontario." Francis Simon Ebbs had been in frail health for several months, but the City was stun- ned this week by his unexpect- ed death at 71 in the Oshawa General Hospital of a stroke. Oshawa has been saddened by his passing and somehow The Motor City won't seem quite the same without him around. JUST WHEN we are all get- ting into the true Christmas spirit the Oshawa Public Util- ities Commission spoils things. They publish the latest deficit figures of their bus department operation, which are astronom- ical te say the least. This caused a hard-bitten tax- payer to ask: "These rapidly - rising bus deficits are getting harder and harder to swallow, so why don't they synchronize them with some of Mitchell Sharp's in- come tax announcements, which are frequent enough, so that the pain will be less severe?" We all knew from the start that the city's marriage to the bus business Jan. 1, 1960, was not to be the happy affair amal- gamation supporters promised, but these mounting deficits are a shock, THE DEFICIT for 1967 up until the end of October was $125,689. This could be reduced to as much as $100,000 with luck, if enough additional pas- Sengers start using the buses. William Gibbie, PUC secre. tary-treasurer, said that pas. senger totals had been reduced this year because of re-routing policies caused by extensive city works construction projects on some city roads. Mr. Gibbie also said the deficit was greatly jncreased hy capital debt expéWditures (in- curred from construction of the new Industrial Park garage headquarters and from pur- chase of more rolling stock), "Remember this," he ex- plained, "we started into the bus business practically from scratch when we took over from the CNR. This means, 'of course, that we should be in better financial position in the years to~tome,"' How are we going to get peo- ple to use the buses more often? Many transit cities in Osh- awa's population group showed improved passenger revenue percentage for the first nine months of 1967 while the local totals fell off. Brantford had an 8.60 per cent improvement, Guelph 5,90, Kitchener §.61, Sars nia 7.77. The City decided to write and ask these operators what the reasons were for the increase, LT.-COL. Leo P. Tiggelers, of- ficer commanding of the Ontare io Regiment is priming his ranks for am important upcoming event, A total of 138 in all ranks will go to Camp Borden early in June to start an extensive train- ing program. The plan is to eventually raise the regiment to regular army standards, in- cluding equipment. The new concept of the army will stress speed, mobility and fire power. There will be a full range of new army trades. One of the most important is mortar. The regiment will have number 81 MM mortars to be carried by the men. They will also have scout ears and jeeps with mae chine guns. "We will perform a recon- naisance role rather than a tank role and the emphasis will be on high speed; searching out the enemy with light armored equipment," said Col. Tiggelers, Political Pollsters In U.S. Record LBJ's Ups, Downs By ARCH MACKENZIE WASHINGTON (CP) -- He's up. He's down, He's moving sideways, + That's one way of describing the U.S. spectator sport of poli- tician-watching via public-opin- jon polls. It's going to increase, too, as next November's presidential- congressional elections ap- proach, The times feed such ex- plosive issues as Vietnam, civil rights and inflation, Potential candidates proliferate--from Lyndon Baines Johnson himself to Alabama _ segregationist George Wallace or baby special- ist Dr. Benjami Spock. There are about 25 reputable public-opinion firms in business on polities. Amid the outpouring of what Americans really -are thinking from one Week to the next, the current status of Senator Robert Kennedy of New York is illumi- nating. By keepirs his mouth shut, the brother of the late president has been rehabilitated from the basement of the standings ear- lier this year. Some friends of President Johnson evidently disliked the long, persistent decline of -the president's standing in the polls and ordered some which showed him in more favorable light. The big two in the poll-taking game are Dr. George C. Gallup and Louis Harris. Their range is broad. Harris has just reported his findings that Robert Kennedy has a lead of 52 per cent to 32 per cent over President Johnson as a preference as next year's Democratic Presidential nomi- nee, That's a record for Kenne- dy, who says he isn't a 1968 can- didate but who has revived his criticism of Johnson's Vietnam militancy. Yet by 50 to 27 per cent, Har- ris says, people are critical of Kennedy's stand on Vietnam and think he was '"wro to want to stop bombing rth Vietnam." ; : Kennedy, who says he doesn't Pay any attention to the polls; hit the skids a year ago in the row over the book by William Manchester about the assassina: tion of his brother, Last Janu- ary, the Gallup poll said, 48 per cent preferred Johnson as Dem- ocratic party's choice and only 37 per cent continued to like Kennedy. But, if Kennedy says he ig- nores the polls, Johnson doesn't --or didn't use to. He carried them in a pocket to regale call- ers with how popular he seemed to be keeping. That ended this year. Re: cently he was surveyed by Har- ris to have reached a_ point where only 23 per cent ex- pressed confidence in him. But the Gallup poll has just reported the first rise in the Johnson charts since the summit meet- ing last June with Soviet Pre- mier Kosygin at Glassboro, N.J. Gallup says 41 per cent now approve of the way the presi- 'dent; is handling his job and 49 per cent disapprove. This com- pares with approval from 38 per cent in October and September. "GOOD WHITBY (Staff) -- A turn-out in tomorrow's hi: election for the new Tow Whitby is expected by candidates and municipal cials. Electors will go to a tol 26 polling stations to vo the men and women who guide the new munici through its first, all - impc years. Polls will be open from 9 to 7 pm There are 11,752 people ible to vote. in the com areas of Whitby and the pr Ameren nun yen rem none enem PICKERING Sergeant B. A. Box (left) and Chief R. T. Parker (centre) of the Pickering . Township Police Depart- Candidate § Winning Se PICKERING (Staff) -- Ce of John Kruger's campaign ain a seat as councillor Pickering Township's Ward amounted to $650, In making the costs pub Mr. Kruger emphasized all the expenses were paid entire out of his own pocket. He said he did not intend eause any embarrassment other candidates who may f agree with his philosophy making election costs publ Arena Duty For Brigade WHITBY (Staff) -- At ¢ St. John Ambulance Whit branch committee meeting b gade members reported brie! on current activities. Ronald Hawkins, superinte dent, said members are- duty at the arena each nig except Sunday, in addition attending at other local ever where their presence Is | quired. The division now has 23 nu ing cadets who are regula instructed in first-aid by th leader, Mrs. Ivan Terry. The girls assist senior briga members. There are 19 ambulan cadets under the leadership Alex Scott, including some jt iors. They also meet week for training. Oshawa and Whitby divisio drum and bugle corps ni have their drums and t bugles will be available sho ly. vthe annual meeting will held Jan. 8 in the Whitby ce tennial building at 8 p.m. | vitations will be sent out all members of all grow their parents and interest friends. The general public cordially invited to attend tl meeting and get first-hand formation regarding the p gram. New members are | gently needed. --- 17 Years of ----