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(Ja a former occasion, _ Rykert Bill was before the H0u86, he (Mr «l du'i bot) ©xpreased himsel! 284105t 1t; and he introgu, (C°! that the time had ye% come to | li.ngl. highg ml measure, He failed to Boo a s Agument brought forward this tima | [ which had not been 44,n0d4 bef0@:, _ The questions of greas importance t? ®Ais coun-- WIthont Potitions frOm the people alklng lt; but, still, he felt that a question of such im-- portance as the one before the Houss--a question on which there was such & diversity of opinion throughout the counrt"y--A ques-- tion on which even the lawyers themselves were equally. divided--he felt that in such a cage it was necessary to obtain the opinion of persons outside the House before taking any decided course, On a former occasion, oue 0i the hon. gentlemen who now advo-- cated the measure said if a petition should be produced, signed by a majority of the | members of the Bar in the Provinces asking for this Bill, it would be time to take it up. But no such petition had been presented. On the contrary many prominent members of the Bar were opposed to it, In the town which he represented, there was quite a di-- versity of opinion on the subject, and a ma-- jority were opposed to it. In other places, however, there was a majority in favour of it. But taking the average, it would be found that the Bar was about equally divided on the question. The hon. gentleman who introduced the measure would find that among the fourteen gentlemen who had ex-- pressed themselves in favor of a change, thore were several who had expressed grave doubts respecting its advisibility, The hon. mem-- ber for North Simcoe expressed himself in favour of a change in criminal as well as civil procedure, Would the hon, gentleman go so far as to pass a law permitting a criminal at the bar to give evidence in his own case ? In criminal cases, as well as civil a'iu'ooeaed- ings, the same arguments could be advanced. There were many cases in which men had been placed in the i)osition of criminals who were no more guilty than the i persons who accused them. [t often hap-- . pened that the person who could first reach | the magistrate and lay the information, | placed the other in the position of the crim-- irx;;i,-- and closed his mouth so that he could nct clear himself of the charge. . hon, m.mb..:;;:a.l:xjr: h'fl summarised all his argumentsinths most logical sqd powerful matner, yet he (Mr Rykert) f'axled to see that they had met.the objactions of the Judges to the measure, Some ho2. gentle-- men had expressed the 0900 that there Was no necessity in this cas0 10" Petitions from the people to make this C*2°Z¢. He was free to admit tha; thore W°re many questions of oreat imn=nn~--tance to this coun-- Mr. BLAKE said the hon gentleman knew very well that this House had nopower to alter the criminal law. Mr. RYKERT said he was well aware of that; but this House should express itself in | favour of the principle. The hon gentleman, | who was so fond of memorializing, could | petition the Dominion Parliament to give the same power lin criminal proceedings. Ia (Mr. Ry*»t) would ask, was the House Iusmied in making this chauge on the opin« ions expressed by the hon. gentleman to-- night. He did not dispute the right of the House to make changes whenever they . pleased, but he would ask of them to be care-- ; ful in doing so lest such changes | should be attended with evil results. Justice Wilson, who is now no more, said such a change as this would be productive of per-- jury, but the advocates of the Bill said it would work its own cure. They contended that under a rigid cross--examination the truth could be sifted out of a plaintiff as well as any other witness. It might be under the hands of such able gentlemen as the hon. members for Grenville and South Bruce, but he doubted if it would be so in all cases. It was often found no easy matter to get the whols truth from disinter-- ested witnesses, _ What then would it be in a case 'where the man most interested of all came to the witness box with everything fully prepared before-- hand. If the man had any fesire to give false evidence he could do so most effectual-- l iy,. Respecting the objections which had keen made to the remarks of the hon. Attor-- zrey--Gen'l. on the education, intelligence and morality of our people, he would say that he fully agreed with the hon. member for South Bruce, that the people of Canada were equal if not superior to any nation in the world in this respect. Our educational institutions were of such a nature that they fitted our peogle to give intelligent opinions on all public questions. He believed the Hon. Attorney--General also admitted this, and that his remarks were not intended as a re-- flection on the character of our people. He (Mr. Rykert) as a member of this House, was opposed to any radical changses without there was urgent necessity for them. He was not prepared to say that he himself was right and all the other members of his profession in the House wrong: but he believed he was taking a com-- mon sense view of the question ; at any rate he gave his views on the subject in the hope that they might be useful to the House. He believed it was the duty of each member to bring {his intelligence and information to bear on this subject, and decide whether this measure should pass or not. He would not take on himself the responsibility of moving a six months' hoist, and he could not suppoit l a measure which he thought was fraught I with danger to the country. Hon. Mr. CAMERON would like to make afew remarks respecting the imprudence of making any change in the law. The hon. member for Welland bad stated that, when the measure was beofrs the House on the last: occasion, he thought it prudent that it should be postponed till bat-- ter evidence 0f itanecessity should be brought forward. He (Mr, Cameron}) had not the gOOd fortune to be preaent when the hon. mermaber for Grenville addressed the House. No doubt he had placeq the matter before the House in his usual lucid and forcible manmer. Perhaps he had offered 80m% DOW evidence--so_mething which had comse to his \ kn(\'ledge Bince last leBSion, whioh ind!lced the bon. member fo» Welland to beli¢vo it was desirable to change the law. The on'ly new evidence, however, which h8 (Mr. Cameron) had learned was that furnished DY some thxrty.oPe Judges of the Conntz Cou;tl and by the Judges Wbi&" Courts. | Twenty of the formor had given it as thot opinion, from their extensive experiencs, that it would be imprudent to make the change. The majority of Common Law Judgee had come to the same conclusion. Now, it was the intention of the promoters of this measure,if they couldiobtain the favour-- | able action of this House, to force on these | Judge:s the very evidence which pracnical °if°""§'i,° had told them was of very little / value, Therefore, there had been no evi-- dence adduced showing any necessity for & , change. 'He' had not the opportunity Of | hearing the arguments of the hon. member for South Bruce, who was, no doubt, as elo-- quent as usual; but he heard the conclusion ' cf the hon,. gentleman's speech in which he / was trying to prove that because the rela-- tives of p%aintifl's were interssted in cases before courts, and were consequently Yartml witnesses--that because they were allowed . to testify, the plaintiffs, who were most ' deeplyfinterested,should also be permitted to | give evidence in their own behalf, This || argument did not appear to him (Mr. Cam-- || eron) to be very forcible. The law did not interd to prevent all persons interested in a case from fiving evidence, less their tosti-- moni should be warped; but it was desira-- ble that the fountains of justice should be kept as pure as possible, that just con-- clusions might be arrived at. . This Bill would be productive of much mischiecft throughout the country, for it tended to increase the crime of perjury, and | no sound argument had been advanced to prove that it would not. There was no ne-- cessity for this measure. No instance had | been brought forward to show that any great | injustice was being done by the present law. 1 The hon. member for North Simcoe had re-- presented that non--suits had been occasioned 1 through it. Non--suits, as a general rule, did not result from want of evidence, but from the fact that the evidence, when produced, was not sufficient to establish a case. Now respecting the remarks of the Attorney General about which there had been so much said, he would simply remark that there was too etrong a tendency to litigation in the country at present, No one would deny that there was more litigation in this country in proportion to our population than in the Mother Country. The law was in existencethere. but | that it has been in operation in England | does not prove that it could not be done l without, nor did it establish that any great | bencfit was derived fromit. There had not | been any evidence aiduced to show that this / alteration} was desirable, and his experience | led him to think that they should inot change . anything until they could see that it was for . their benetit. Une Judge of the Supsarior | Hon. Mr. WOOD thought that the 3rd clause of the Bill related to crimina' matters, and therefore came under the jurisdiction of the Dominion Parliamert. Since this ques-- tion had been agitated he had had some ex-- perierce in nisi prius, and he had considered the effect of this Bill, and he found that in almo«t all cases relatives were the most prejudiced witnesses. This was the experi-- ence of all lawyers who had experience in the Courts; and it was but human nature. The witnesses for either side would always give a colouring to their tostimony. It was most extraordinary that in seeking for the truth of any matter, they should ex-- clude from the witness box those who were the best calculated to give the most and reliable evidence in the case. He appsealed to the experience of every lawyer who had experience in the matter, whether they had rnot found that the greatest difficulty was experienced from the fact that they could not put the actual parties to the suit in the wit-- ness box. Mr. CLARKE, in reply, said it scemed to | him that the main argument of the opponents ' of the Bill was that it was a matter requiring great consideration before any alteration could be made in the law. But hesubmitted that sufficient reasons had been shown in favour of the Bill proposed, and hs would add that justice would not be done while the present statute was allowed to remain una. mended upon the statute book. It tended very much to the disparagement of the ad-- ministration of justice in this country. When hon. members brought measures before this House they should be judged | upon their merits, and no insinuations of | improper motions should be thrown out, and he would deny that he had any interest-- that his profession had any interest--in the | matter more than any other class of the ' community ; but they saw, perhaps, more clearly than others the evils of the present system. He should, therefore, not shriak from doing hig duty to his constit-- uents and to the oountrx by any insinuation that might be made. After a slight reference to some arguments that had been advanced, Mr. Clarke concluded by asking the House to give the proposed law a fair trial, Mr. HAYS ogpcaed the Bill on the former nccasion, and had not changed his opinion now. The present law had done very well for a long time, and so long as the majority of Judges were in favour of it, he should not vote against the proposed alteration. After some discussion as to details, which it was stated could be brought forward in the Committee, the division was taken, when 43 Ayes and 30 Nays were declared as the result, amid some cheering. Atty. Gon. MACDONALD said the hon. gentleman seemed somewhat elated at his having voted lastnightfor aresolution which he proposed. Hefwas so jubilant thathe could noy allow an occazgion of this sort to pass without reminding him of it, but he knew perfectly well that he owed that success to a combina-- tion of parties that usually support the Gov-- ernment, He wished to say a feow words with respect to the observations that had been called forth, before this question was consigned toa committee, Itshould be be thought a wonder how they got along at all with the law that prevailed now --that they | should not have broke down ; they had been boasting that they were going along in a march of material prosperity, and yet they were under the rule of this infamous law | which had been condemned that night,. The only wonder was how they got along at 'all, (A laugh) but now they had discovered that |\ they could get along better. _ (Renewed | laughter.) He had stood in that House many | years ago and had always opposed | measures of swesping changes, but had lived to see some which had been passed re-- pealed, and to see them acknowledged to be failures. He felt strongly that this was a wrong move ; but he confessed that he must bow to public opinion,. He had not made it a party question, and had called no caucuses, no conventions, nor had he given away any champagne-- m»r, HA Y suggested that the Atty.--Gen-- eral should be a.dged to the list. Atty.--Gen. MACDONALD--Oh no ! I am against it. 4 Mr. CLARKE proposed that the Bill should be referred to the following select i Committee :--Messrs, Wood, Blake, Pardse, | Lount, and the mover. | Mr. BLAKE--Although the hon. gentle-- man opposed the Bill a few minutes ago, he may now be in favour of it. Atty,--.Gen. MACDONALD--How do you think 1 am in favour of it ? Mr. BLAKE--It is a way the hon. gentle-- man has, (Laughter.) -- YrErasg--Messrs. Baxter, Beatty, Blake, Boyd, CA-- vin, Carling (Huron), Carnegie, Christie: 'Clatke, Olé-- mens, Cockburn, Coyne, Crosby, Evans, Eyre, Finlay-- son, Fraser, Gow, Grahame, (York), Lount, LyOD: Matchett, McDougall, McGill, McKellar, McKim, McLleod, McMurrich, Pardee Perry, Read, Secord, Sexton, Sinclair, Smith ( Middfesex), Strange, Springer Swinarton, Trow, Wigle, Williams (Durham), Wil-- Hams, (Hamilton (Wilson, Wood. 43; Mr. McKELLAR--Wel, but you go down to Ontario to buy a Gill sometimes ! (Laughter.) > I have taken the wool out of that gentle-- man's eyes very often. (Renewed laughter ) He was about to make some observations with reference to the morality of the people of this country. He had, befors Mr. Blake was born, declared that Canadians were as good as any other nation. He had done all 1 be could for the people; but it became the . hon. member for South Bruce (Mr. Blake) to say that he bad forgotten the obligations he owed to his country and to the people to whom he cwed his present position ; and he would say. in reply, that when he spoke of the moral conrdition of the same class in Canada being of a lower grade than that class in England, he referred to the class of litigants, acd he wouid repeat that that class in this country would not compare with its type in England. In England law was an oxpen-- sive luxury, and those who engaged in it were men of the highest standard, and who were of greater intelligence than those who engaged in this country. _ And in addition to that they had in Eugland learned barristora and judges who were competont to deal with the results of this law, and that in this was found the explaration of the fact that it worked well in England, A similar rosult could not be expected here, for they had not the bigh standard ucither of clients nor of the legal profession that was obtained in England. He believed the Bill would fail, and that it would not have the effect in this _country that it was expected to produce. } Having said thus much, he must succumb not in anger but in sorrow,. _ He was rincere in what he said, and he would unly add that he would repel the insinuation that he wished to cast upon the people of this country an unmerited obloquy, when hs said that they wore not equally ;rained to that same class in England. (Hear, ear). Mr. HAVS suggested that the Atty.--Gen-- The following is a list of members : Mr. BLAKE said, if the hon. member had regretted the observations he had made, ha would have heard no more from him, but they had heard an aggravation in his explan. tory remarks, He had told them that, while he retracted the distinction which he had drawn between the people of this country and England, that he meant it to apply to the class of litigants in tme respective coun-- tries. And what was the difference? That they were in England niore weslthy and highly trained, lfiow, everyone know that the bulk of litigants in Canada were farmers and merchants, and were they to conclude that because the bulk of these classes were less wealthy and less trained that they wore therefore less honest, had less integrity, had lower moral sense, and are not to be so much trusted on their oaths? (Hear, hear), The honourable gentleman had adopted the old exploded view, * born of Atty. Gen, MACDONALD--Oh, no; but poor, --but honest _ parents,". | as if poverty and honesty were distinctive fea-- tures, -- He had said that the words of the mags of the people are not to be taken; but he (Mr. Blake) denied the statement, and would ask them to look at what they knew was the character of the litigants of this country as an answer to the charge,. _ The hon member's explanations had only pointed the insult which he had : before made. ((heers) _ With reference to the argument that very high legal ability was engaged in England, he would call to the hon member's remembrance that there were in England such Comts as Small Dobt and County Courts, which disposed of enormous num bers 'of casee, _ And did be mean to say that the highest legal talent w, Court:--that the same there as in the metrop course it was not : ang thera as in ¢,, _ TWAC talent was engaged there as in the metro olitan Courts? _ Of course it was not ; ang he believed that if the law could be carried out success-- fully in the small GCourts of Eng-- land _ by _ the provincial _ profession that it could be equally well done in Canada. He believed that the Provincial Bar would be quite able to discharge the duties which would tall upon them by the Act, which his honourable friend had so successfully in-- trocuced, and which he had no doubt he would as successfully carry through the House. (Cheers.) Mr. BLAKE formally moved the second reading of a Bill ""to Amend the Law of Evidernce," He proposed that it should be referred to the same Committee as the Bill of Mr. Clarke's. ANOTHER BILL ON THE LAW OF EVIDENCE,. The Bill was read a second time, and re-- ferred to the Committee as suggested, sSUPPLY,. Hon. Mr. WOOD moved the final resolu-- tion that the House should go into Com-- mittee of Supply on Friday, Carried. GoOVERNMENT BUSINESS. In answer to Mr. MoKELLAR, Atty.--CGen, MACDONALD said that the Government were prepared to go on with their Bills this day (Thursday), after the Private Bills had been disposed of ; but if that was rot possible, they would be brought forward on Friday. The Grammar and}|Com-- mon School Bills would be considered first, and then the Drainage Bill. The House adjournedfjat 11;40 p.m. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. Coyne--** Act in relation to weights ;nd marks on casks and packages containing utter." Mr. Ferguson--Bill to amend " An Act > respecting tavern and shop licenses." Mr. Blake--On Friday next, will move : 1. That an humble address be pressnted to Her Msjesty, praying that she may be . gracicurly pleased to cause a messure to be submitted to the Imperial Parliament for the purnose of removing all colour for the as-- sumption, by the Parliament of Canada, of the power to disturb the financial relations established by the British North American Act (1867), as between Canada and the sey-- eral Provinces. & 2. That a select committee, composed of _ be appointed to draft an humbls ad-- dress to Her Majesty, founded on the said resolution. Mr. -- McKellar--Select Committee to whom shall be referred the papers of John Carroll, (Sessional papers No. 32 of session 1868--9) with power to send for persons aiid papers. C o s n i ies s en ie The Committee was then appointed. Eki 0 Mr. Carnegle--That the nams of Mr. Beatty be added to the Select Committee on Upper Canada College.