The Ontario Scrapbook Hansard

Ontario Scrapbook Hansard, 7 Dec 1869, p. 2

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T. H hrsrN/, 'tyt It il/li, 33' Mr. MCKELLAR said there was no part of the Bill ho would more heartily support than this clause. In his County, after one failure in the operation of the county super- intendent system, they had got the right man in the right place, and the gentleman had well fulfilrcd his duties. He thought that with the salary proposed they would be able to secure the services of qualified men, which wee notelwsys done under the present system. lle wished to ask the Prov. Secretary whether the Board of Education would take such steps " not to exact a toosearchlng ex- amination from the city superintendents. They had been told that such a course would not be followed with the county giri',P,',t dent, and he hoped that there wou d be no exceptions made in respect to the city super- intendent. Hon. Mr. CAMERON said the offratt wss only an annual one, and there could be no idea of securing a permanent position. There wss no doubt, however, some excellent man now discharging the duties of county super~ intendents who are not able to pass a severe examination, and it woe intended to make a provision frr them. City superintendents would he waited on the some basis. He might add that there seemed to be a greet deal of difference of opinion " to the effect of the change proposed, but it struck him that it would e more desirable if hon. gen- tlemen, who were only speculating on the effect, would paris little more attention to the opinions of a gentleman who had been engaged for a great number of years in ex- amining the workings of the county and local superintendent system. In many cases the iniluences of an individual would be brought to bear upon the district, and no attention would be paid to the merits of the system proposed. He hoped that hom gentlemen would not allow their It inions on the ques~ tion to be influenced by local motives of con- siderntion for individuals. He thought the payment, as proposed, would be decidedly advantageous. Mr. HAYS wu not in favour of. the county superintendents retiining their position without undergoing the exam- ination that would prove their com- petence for their position. Dr. McGlLL aid there were mony argu- menu in favour of the appointment of a county superintendent. Such on cifUsr should be o well educated men, and well posted in all the improved methods of teach- ing. He should also receive such remunera- tion a. would permit him to devote all his time tothe school: under his truperluttsad. ence. He would be removed from the arena of petty local quench, and, consequently, would be better able to adjudicate impar~ tielly in such matte", He believed the clean wuagood one, and he would eup- port it. Mr. GOW was eleo in favour of the clause. Mr. SINCLAIR objected to the Proposal of his honourable friend to subject unper- intendente to on txamination. Many gentle- men, who were beet titted for the position, would resign rather than lublnit to an ex- aminetion. If County Council: were not al- lowed to appoint them, the county would lcae their union. m would have much plenum in supporting the cleuae, and giving the proponed chnnge a tair trial. |1_ "--.-, Mr. LOUN I would be prepared to accept this clause if an inducement were offered to secure a man competent to discharge the onerous duties of a county superintendent. ll he remuneration proposed was not ttatiivaieut to procure the men best qualitiad for the po- sition. Be could not support this abolition of local superintendents without seeing some provision made to supply their place With competent ofh'cerg, M r. CHRISTIE said he believed that theqe were many Counties whieh approved of county superintendents, and the interests of such Counties were better served by the appointment. m believed also that many Counties were much better served by the appointment of local superintendents, consequently he would much prefer to leave their appointment optional " was the case now, believing that much greater satisfaction would be the result in the working of the School system. The County which he rep- resented (Wentworth) felt, he believed, strongly on this clause of the Bill, and have petition ed against it generally. 7 ....w.. .- new In a languio auto. 0n the century, gay never wen-ohm more ',uyuhiitii condition. Although not opposed to county 1yeriutndenii,' he new no nece-eity for n change, and would support gin 2','d'.nd'Utt of the honourable member for o o . JD- - .mn ill-la Mr. PERRY said he must differ from the hononrnble gentlemen who represented our Common School: a bein'i in a PyPuhiiiii mt... 0n the century, ey never were in n more Pyuhiitii condition. Alum-mi- - -A ohm A, - --.. . "1.. .mo Ipoko 'gsim md in favour of the smudge". Lc.,d",UiCLl'd2l'flPPsttt.i Mr. RY KERT said a large number of his conetitmnte were in favour of appointing county In perintendentl. Mr. TROW was opposed to the change. Mr. MrDOUGALL we: in favour of this clause. It wee advisable ho appoint some one to this cffiee who could devote all his time to the performance of the duties ep- pertaining to it. Mr. SECORD said the House had received petitions sgsinss this proposed, change, but none in favour of it, and he could not believe they doiredachangts. The new system would he an expensive one. It would be like s thrashing mschine, (laughter,) giving a great deal of straw end a little wheat. He would stand up like a man sgeinst this change. (Laughter.) Mr. CALVIN for one had no objection. to place township superintendentl under due re- strictions. He dad not deny that they were not what they should be, sad Government should see that they were what they should be. But he objected to depriving the peo- ple of the right of choosing their Superin- tendtnte. For his part he felt it his duty ta oppose the cha "ge. TOWN-hi a, citii'i,HoirG .333 2'2"dll' except in oortain on..." M I M r. OLIVER a1ao Ipoko 3pm: the elm-o, favour of the "tgtrsA.iL, wiry, they never ,FGriii"t condition. Although not , 1yrrinttndenii,' he luv alumn- --'" - . - be m pi, ig'vla a... . -Mr. SCOTT G of the clause. t ray) also spoke in "Work Mr. GAL§RAITH approved of the proposed, (Inigo. The a pointment Mart officer whoee exclusive gut was to look after the interest. of the schools under hls charge would do more to advance the "use of poppar education than anything else. He would support the clause with all his heart. Hear, hear). -- Mr. SEXT()N did not think there won my desire on the part of the people for this change, and he would therefore oppose it. "Hon. Mr. CAMERON aid the amen had been tried in the neighbouring country, and had proved enllnentiy successful. Mr. MCCALL (Norfolk) said the poo le of his constituency had held meetings and con- sidered this measure thoroughly, and they had come to the decision that there was no necessity for this change. It would impose an additional charge on the Province of over $53,000 per year. This money, if applied directly to the use of schools, would support 120 additional schools. Mr. COYN lil did not suppose that any member of the House would be carried away by the logic or eloquence of the hon, member for Norfolk. The opinion of some of that hon. gentleman" constituents was not to be taken as an expression of the views of the entire Province on the subject. He (Mr. C ) believed there was a growing desire on the part of the people for the change, and he had no hesitancy in giving it his hearty sup. port. Mr. FERGUSON believed township superintendent: would answer the require- ments of the country for some time to come. He held that as long " the majority of the people wemsaatiUitsd with the present stave - ' . u ---- Lamina. am mnka 3 ohm". Opw 'rTu-"'"'"'"- .. --_ -'-'" . 2: affairs, it was t,ttlt' to make a change. At any rate, it wo d be well to let the peo- ple ccneider the matter . little longer before taking my action. The people knew how to manage their own affxire, and. should be allowed to do so. He would, therefore, vote against the clause. - - I - _!L1. LI... "a-.-" -e-- . . .CODE could not agree with the nigh which had just tallen from the hat speaker, that the , people were opposed to a change. He (Mr. cloo"id my, {run his own oUervatioa, that the people were in favour-30f the measure. and particularly of this very clause, He was tir. ed of tuning the old cry, " Let well enough aloe," from those who had no deeire to 1m. prove themselves or let others progress He was convinced there was a necessity for this change and he would austein it. (Hear, hear). Mr. BARBER and Mr. CROSBY spoke against- the clause, on the ground that the present system was . good one and the peo- ple were trat,isfied with it. -- - _ -- _ A vote was then taken on the first clause, which was carried, thirty-six members vot. ing for it. The two following clauses were adopted without discussion. Mr. BA XTER moved, in amendment to the fourth clause,that the following be added thereto:--." Provided always that it shall not be lawful to appoint any person to be county superintendent who has not been engaged " a practical teacher for a period of at least three years, except such persona as may hold the cffice at the time of the passage of thin Act." - Eon. Mr, CAMERON amid the people did not want the Common School Law at all ; in the first place it wap, forcedon them, and now they were "tietied with it. Mr. WILSON said the people of his consti- tuendy (N. Norfolk) were almost unanimous in their oppcsition to this Bill. He hoped the Bill was not framed to make situations for a number of offioertseekera. Whether it was or not he felt. it his, duty to oppose it. Mr. LUTON spoke in support of the Bill. There might be some objectionable clauses in it, but this wu not one of them. Atty-Gen. MACDONALD said he did not introduce this Bill in a party spirit, but rather in a spirit of compromise. There was a great deal of disgust in the country respect- ing the tenure of lands purchased at 8heriif's sales for taxes. The object of this Bill was to remove all such apprehensions. The prin- ciple of the Bill was that the men who had failed to pay the taxes due on his lands, and had allowed them to pass away from hlm, should forfeit them in tavour of the man who purchaeed them at a Sheriff':: sale, and who paid his taxes regularly and improved the property. The first clause provides that sales for taxes bhall be made valid if the purchaser had continued in occupation four years prior to this Act, and made improvements to the F value of two hundred dollars, except when E the taxes are paid before the sale, or in cases where the taxes. with interest thereon, shall be paid within the period limited by law for redemption, or in caee- of fraud by the, pur- chaser' at the sale, or it the purchaser has been ejected. Mr. BLAKE objected to the clause. The only case in which he would allow the l purchaser to hold the land purchased at a i, tax sale. was when the purchaser had settled on the land and made improvements. With l, regard to the general provisions of the Bill, i he might say that the analogies, to which ', the hon. gentleman had advertise, were in no a sense or shape analogies for the passage of J the present Bill. He had referred to the . Statute of Limitations on lands, but that ex- l anguished the right, as well " the remedy, i after a period of 20 years. But he objected l . entirely to the assumption, that, because i they had a Statute of Limitations, they t .could, therefore, enact a retro active Statute of Limitations ;that, because they had a1. , lowed a man, tho had allowed another man ' " to remain on hie property for 20 Le,"' with. 'iotit any molestation) there are they ilhould a a law that arson: should not The Committee rose and reported progress, end asked leave to sit again tomorrow. The Home rose at six o'olook. AFTER RECESS. The House went into Committee of the Whole on Bill (No. 16) concerning Sheriff's Sales for Taxes (Atty-Gen. Macdonald). Mr. Its kert in the chair. After a short discussion the amendment was put to 5 vote and lost, and the clause was adopted without amend meats. Mr. LOUN'I' said if his hon. friend object- ed to the principle of the Bill, he should never have given it any Iuppbrt. m should never have given his assent to allow it to magmas " fit as the Committee of the Whole. The hon. gentleman was opposed tothe principle of confirming these sales, unleee where the purchaser was actually in possession. Now, there were thiusands of acres of land in the Province allowed to re. main unimproved and the taxes unpaid, simply because the municipal authorities were not able to sell them for the taxes due tm account of the insecurity of tho titles in euch cases. He hoped the House would not oppose this meaeure, which was calculated to quiet a great deal of alarm which now or istfd in the country with respect to such tit es. Ea; their lends by some Qefects in . the future, but should be immediately t1t.syite.d of their _urttu. That wee the diff1tmlty of the Bill pulsing 1n its present tsupe---tut they thould now declare that the lands which belong to one man to-dey shopld be held by another. Pt, knew that' it was viewed in a different light by at",': aim T w by mam??? tiPit2!tt", In: o Magma; vsowcu - w - .. _ V by members of_ this House, who would, when the Bill became law, become proprietors of farms which, until it Was passed, were not them. It was very reason- able in them to say that the lands for which they had given a few dollars, but which are now worth thousands, should be con- fumed to them. m could not recognize this as equity. A man did not fultil what the law required. and in consequence of that he was to be subjected to something that the law did not provide. He thought that a man who had permitted his lands to be sold, but which were sold irregularly, should not dispossess that purchaser without giving him payment for " improvements. One party should not obtain a itrpfit over another at all in the matter. He did not think the hon. gentleman, opposite had sufficient warrant to draw urttty? retro;actize LAct; and he did ','Gi"ailr"TisiGityough he might pass it through the House, it would commend itself to the ccuntry at Inge. "Mr. BLAKE said this manure was simply a ocnfieoatiory, instead of a protection of pn- vate tights, and " such he opposed it. Hon. Mr. CAMERON said, under the existing custom, the law of the' land we: set aside through alight iuformalities and irrega. larities in carrying it out. Now, he con- sidered such trivial mistaken should not be allowed to interfere with the security of t he titles. The clause was adopted. On the second clause, providing that sales shall be made valid in cues of vacsnt lands, it the purchaser he: paid eight years' taxes, a discueeicn arose. "The firat section, subject tothtexceptioas in the subsections thereof, shall apply also to make the sale valid in those cases in which the tax purchaser shall not have occu- pied the land, or any part thereof, or having occupied, shall not have occupied for the four years mentioned in the first section, ttr shall not have made improvements thereon to the value mentioned In such section ; pro- vided the tax purchaser has since the sale, and prior to the tirat day of November, one thousand eight hundred and tsixty-nine, paid at least eight sears' taxes charged on the said lands ; and, provided that the owner has not occupied the land, or some part thereof, for one year between the conveyance by the Sheriff and the said first day of N o. vemben" The operation of the clause would be that there must bea least eleven years of taxes unpaid before the provisions could come into operation, three years and six months before the tax sale, and at least eight years after the sale. They held that a man who had not paid his taxes for eight years after the sale, and three years before the sale should not possess the right to recover the land. He thought that the operation of the clause would be beneficial; the time that they had fntroduced was very lengthy, and it was desirable in the interests of the country that song: definite limit should be placed on this ma er. Atty.-Gen. MACDONALD withdrew the clause, and substituted the following I-- Mr. BLAKE did not consider it right on the part of the Legislature to take away the lands of one man to give them to another, because the first had forgotten to pay his taxes for eight or eleven years. Tue hon, gentleman had told them that it was a very long time that he had given; but the law held that no length of time in the unpayment of taxes should make a man lose his title. If a man paid taxes for eight years, he was quite prepared to give him some compensation for his payments. But there were many cases in which taxes were not paid through vari- ous causes. and the lands would be sold for a few dollars with a questionable title. He did not think the purchaser, who thought he had bought a farm for a few dollars, should be defraud- ed ot the taxes he had paid during the years that he held the property, and he should therefore move that the taxes paid by the purchaser should be returned to him, and he should be paid 10 per cent. interest on them. Atty.-thsnerat MACDONALD considered that the hon. gentleman had given an ex- treme case, and had not pointed to those cases wherelparties had been known to re- fuse to redeem their lands. With reference to personal knowlege of these matters, he could speak from a personal knowledge of thirty years. He had known cases where an intimation was given 'sto persons of the necessity of their ipaying their taxes, and yet the: would not pay a dollar, referring tolett elands o. The lands might then be told over an: over again during the tal. lowrng twenty years. and in that time the land which was supposed to be irreclaimable. and quite a wilderness, became developed, and made prosperous by some railway pass- ing through it. Tho parties orginally own- Apg had left the country, and some persons, h'tuiing out these dc feats in the titles of the Present holders, went to England or the United States,and have purchased the rights tf the third generation for a paltry gum and then have come back, and made those, who were now the possessors and occupiers of the hall, pay large hum. ot momw in ma-.. a- @2211 iii ptder to 'ii"iiTLat Ihti.r claim. Ba thou _ "'73 flute we: conetdanble urt.lship in 'gt,'. tlat 1. bln BLAKE said the olvtst before "fen-ed to cases. when! the 'pdiffLtt . gene into occupatlon. - gaff"? General MACDONALD oonsid~ ered thst the case was one of hardship. The Court of Chancery 'based its judgment! on prirytl", of eqmyy, but we know many one: in "hick t" equity of that Court Ind been very bar . '1'hey_ sought to provide thst the" who had omitted to lock after their property, and who let a man who had ob. tained the land spend money on his lull. in impTvttrictits should eutrender their rirht: to that purchaser. This Wu the principle of the 1hil, and he had no doubt that the stocad clause would commend itself to the ooruideratton of the Home. Mr. BLAKE said u had not referred t, Lil own pontion, but it had been alluded to by the hen. gentleman. He could undet- stand why the hon, gentlemsn did not like the Court of Chancery. for he remembered that ite decrees had been promulgated agsinat him, and that he had had to phy for land which otherwise he would have obtsia. ed for comparatively nothing. Attorney-General MACDONALD-Don't spare me. (Alaugh). Mr. BLAKE said he should not. He did not hesitate to admit that there were hard eves on both sides But the hon. Atty.-Genenl wished :to trans- fer all the hardships to one aide. He (Mr B ) could point to the one of widows and orphamr losing their property through not having paid their taxes. He could not ob- ject toa law which would operate in the I future, but he weuId opppose a 13w which, 5 like this would be retroactive. l, M LOI'NT saidix' the hen. member for Bruce war. prepared to do justice at all, he shculd not do it in a half and half way, but mete out even handed justi<e to all. If justice was to be done, the purchaser shouid not only be returned his purchue money with interest at ten per cent, but all the ex- penses t.ufml.iry.ttl-y.H.yyyl1y.e, . -... - Mr. LAUDER would vote for the second clans-e, because he believed a certain limit should be allowed for the redemption of a lot. Eight years was I fair term to all It would hardly be fair to keep the purchaser in uncertain}? respecting his title. He was compelled to pay taxes on the lot, and he could not sell it, for who would buy a lot with such an uncertain title ? In this Province, where land changed hands so often, it was necessary to tmr,tira1 the titles within a reasonable time. For these reasons he would support the second clause The ea. ceptional nature of the sales required ex- ce pticnal legislation. - Ben. Mr, CAMERON said this Biixrgave the original owner sight years to contest the sale. If he did not take advantage of this term he thculd forfeit his right to ths property altogether. m could bring a writ of ejectment against the purchaser, and prove his claim _to it i_f_he desired to hold it, Mr. McLEOD believed municipalities shsnld be held responsible for the acts of their cfficerts. If irregularities occurred at tax sales, the municipalities should be held liable for the m. Eon. Mr. RICHARDS made some expla- nations respecting: the clause which the At. tcrpiitrjtttl hsd _iptroduced. Mr. FERGUSON could not agres with his hm. friend. He was giving too mach pro- tection to the original purchaser. The clause was adopted. 'ry thin! clause was adopted without du. cumon. The fourth clause was adopted after a short debate. M r. LYON would not support a retro. active measure He did not believe in prur ing an Act which would at once destroy the claims of the original owners. If the At, tomey General would amend the clause so as to give such persons a year's notice before allowing the law to go into force, he would support it. He believed they should hare fair warning, and if they did not sct on thst, then their lands should be tsken from them. On the fifth clause, which provides tint purchasers who have been ejected, shall be entitled in equity to the value of improve- ments, . discussion arose. Mr. PABDEE had no objection to sup- porting the clause, if its action were to be CCt fired to the future. But the clause was retro-active. It wu proposed to legislate in one" which have already been decided. H e deprecated atirring up such cases. It would be better to let them remain as they have Seen settled, and legislate for the future one. Mr. HAYS said the legislation of thi, evening would bring min on many th mm in this Province. It would, doubtless, benefit a certain class, but it would injure a. much Inger ortion of the community. No one could wish to have these tax titles quieted more then he did, but he did not believe this Act would hove the desired effect. It would be better to let the Courts of low decide all cases of the pest, and let the House legislate for the future alone. Ar, the Bill new stood, he would be obliged to oppose it. -..- _ -- _ __ 7 -- _ - Mr. PARDEE said he w» opfoidd to retro. active legialntlon in any ehnpe, or for any length of time. He hoped the hon. Attor- ntthperal would Iritlsdraw this dense. . Mr. BLAKE said the Attorney General pet med to desire to effect I compromise _-tr, limit the time to five years. He(Mr. Ir) was opposed to the principle of mtro-mtwe legiahtion. Hon. Mr. McN1URR1frd--..d would vote for that 4itormsrtJenera1 MAC DONALD proposed to let the Home decide on . limitation of the tin}? to_v_vl:igh_tllis _A_qt should apply, . The remaining clung. were carried with- out discussion, Mr. Blake urging that the 7th clause might be allowed to itand, but that it would be disallowed. - ... 'After some further remarks the clause was adggted, nsithpsorn? alight atnendrntrt9. ... "m tsiiiLii,irGiiiiiii'i'ii the Bill with amendments. The] reception of the report was fixed for Thursday. TORONTO HOUSE BUILDING ASSO- CIATION. Bill (No. 22) to inoo th Toronto House Ii11i.ltlis 1l.l.11llillg,"utylrpr'ii, 'lt,

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