The Ontario Scrapbook Hansard

Ontario Scrapbook Hansard, 19 Dec 1871, p. 2

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But we found defection. True, w# forin as 1 myseir couia aesire. AO4 1 am glad that they have had the opportunity of showing that which was said of them, and waat I myself, in the hcat of debate, for-- merly said of their leaders--that they have had ar opportunity of showing by their ad-- besion to the cause of no party Govern. ment, and by having abandonsd their own peculiar views of a conservative charae ter, that they could act the part of true patriots, and have belied thoso charges heaped upon them of being corruptioniats, and iniwical to economy &ane 2904 Govern-- ment, Having said so much nothing more remains formetosay furbber than that, if in the course of debate, f may have said aufthing offensive to any gentleman opposite, hope my hon, friends on the other side will accept this apology from ms, If T have said auy. thing to wound the feelings of an» : t man, I did not intend it; and * W1 :gfiflg' * # Ke« * « f;::; op%):site said ..uru things of me, I am 16« +4 --~rgive him, as I hope they are «y to forgive me. The hon. gentloman concluded by moving the adjournment of the House. L retern my most hearty th--uks, Ilook back upon the last four years, and I declare that whatever position I may have held proviously, I never receive1amore cordial support than I did from those gentlemen who supported us during that tims As to myselt and my Reform colleagues in the Cabinot, I found a ready willingness to co--operate with us on the part of the Conservatives, and but for the manner which attached to that party by reason of questions of differenso that ox-- isted previous to Confedcration, I would not have discovered in a single instance that there was anything in the character of these gentlemen which was not as essentially re Mr, BLAKTE--It is not my intention to take up in detail the observations that have just beon made, but I may say that the last part of them will be very cordia'ly respond-- ed to from both sides of the House. I hav« mygelf sinned in the direction he has indicat-- ed; we have all sinned in the same respect, and many occasional errors have been com-- mitted and we all regret them. I am not allowed to enter into the historical or »=as;-- nadiiti EO T CCC F ; us with being : honourable gentleman has gone. Bat entrusted to us, we | I may remark that he has besn » should have passed | inconsistent in some parts bi his observa. rmitted to proceed | tions, He has informed us that the gentle. , intended to sabmit men who sit around him and who have given d of members seek--| him their cordial support for the past four r constituents on the : years, he has found to be good Reformers-- uld give fair play, that they had abandonsd their Conservative e day, and judge of : views, and were as good Reformors as him. Honourable mem-- | geif, Then,by way of warning to us who are ately and publicly. ' called on to conduct the political aftairs of the we wore led to un--| Province, he told us that, good Reformers as ild be the mods of these gentlemen were, it was impossible le bhonourable mem-- that they would %zve us any 'support what efection True, we ever--that while he did not see any wall of views of members, | division between these gentlemen and us, he use. But we ¢®--| intended to erect a Chinese wall of separs: pointed.-- We were| tion, Iam not bound to speculate on the 1e defection in seme| future, nor discover my plans; but they re mot going -- to | will soon appear, and then the hon. gentle with the motiv®e®| men will see whoether they will be more that is befi"'_'""' satisfactory to us than to him. Mr. MACKENZIE--There is one thing to which I desire to call attention, and it is a matter to which the Attornsy--General re-- ferred last niiht. In the course of the de-- bate last week I mentioned the case of Mr. Fraser, member for Northumberland, in terms which I characterized at the time as savouring of a plan calculated to prevent that gentleman from tsking his seat here, and voting against the Government. I stated practically on that occasion that I had rea-- son to believe, as I had, from letters in my possession, that influence was brought to bear on Mr. Fraser by a certain banking institution in Montreal. Drar Sir,--My attention has been called to a report of your speech in the Ontario Legislature on the 14th inst., in which you state that the resignation of Mr. Alex, Fraser was brought about by a pressure from a Bank with which the Government of Ontario had {'rho;; the higmaition which yo; hold in PO*'THOIFOW OVELINS AV JioV, public life in C a, l am satistied that no : such statement would be made by you unless THE SPEAKER ON HIS PRIVILEGE, you had good reason for believing it 1 _ The SPEAKER rose and said--It is one teel, therefore, it is due to you as well as $o-- ¢*1 . X Ahol the Bank of Montreal, if you referred to that Of th0 PM¥Ieg®s of tuis House, that a mem-- Bank, to state that you have been entirely ber when attacked--and unjustly attacked -- misinformed. I have lmdL 1no recent com-- 1D the press, can rise and refer to the matter, murication whatever with Mr, Fraser respec-- _ Hop, . CD iN -- ting his seat in Parkiament. (Crigke g:'sf'.,?f,'} d gnp é)LD""I rise to say-- Whken the elections for Ontario took place, i ue PE::GEF}{ I claim the privil f early in the year, Mr, Fraser was heavily The SF his Ho claim the priviieges 0 indebted to the Bank, and his business was a member of this tiouse. f sot prosperous, owing in some part as 1 Hon~J. S. MACD@NALD--I will object teared, to his public engagements interfering |if-- (i ries ot * Chair, chair.") with his besiness, and I requested the | The SPEA@ER--I appeal to the House, Manager at Cobourg to say to Ar. Fraser. | (Cyjes of * Chair, chair.") that as the Bank was so largely involved on. J B. M > N ALD --This i with him that it was our mutual interest h« Hon, J, S, MACDO® iLD --This is a mat should give his undivided attention to his ter personal to the Speaker. himself, and it nusiness. -- Unfortunately this suggestion was 4s not right to say i0 pefore . th* House not adopted and Mr. Fraser has since beeoms (Cries of **Chair, chair," and uproar.) insolvert. -- Beyond this suggestion upon the The SPEAK ER--L will read a paper I hol: »ubject at that time I have never had any in my hand _ ((Great uproar from doa, J. 3 | communication with Mr. Frasor eithes Macdonald's followers, and cries from Mr | directly or indirectly. Biake's foltowers of * Caarr, chare.") 1 zemain _ Hon J. 8. M ACDONALD--I dlay thi Mr. MACKENZIE--The language I used was to the effect thatthough the proof coa'd not well be fnade apparent, thore woare those who knew the intimate rcslations that c:ist betwoeen a gontlemar opor Bank of Montreal, ; Montreal, Dec. 16, 1871. I also received a letter from -- Georgse Stephens, an extract from which I will read: MoxTREAL, 16th Des., 1871. Dear Sir,--I observe in the Torontso G1LoBE that, in addressing the Parliament of Ontario on the l4th inss., you stated that Mr. Alex. Fraser, member for Northamber-- land, had been compelled to rosigen his sea in the House, by pressure brought to bear upon him by & certain bank with whom the Government had dealings and by a leading merchaat in Montreal, who had intimate ra-- lations with Cornwall; and further you informed Parliament that Mr. Fraser had ims resignation placed before him and told tha if he did not send it to the Spsaker by thns first mail they would wird him up. I beg to iwnform you that the statement is untrac,. Mr Fraser some months ago, and again more ro cently, consulted me with a view to obsain-- in» my assistance and co--operation in extri-- cating him from his pecuniary difficultics, by the establishment of a joint stock compauy to carry on the business in which he had be came insolvent. _ I told him then, and also recently, that I could not ask any friends to invest capital in such an undertaking, untes> he, as manager, gave up his wholse time and attention to the business. _ Mr. Fraser as sented to the ressonableness of this view and rent his resignstion t> the Spesker as soon as the House met,. Withr garl to the pressure of any bank upon Mr. Fraser, I know nothing. beyond this, \hat the Merchants' Bank and the Bank of Montrsal are the two heaviest creditors of Mr. Fraser, and that so far as any action of mine is concerned neither one bank or the other has ever requested or euggested anything to me with regari to Mr. Fraser's seat in FParliament. I trust you will not eonsider I am asking too much in requesting you to correct your statement to the House, presuming your re-- ference to have been directed to me, as Mr. Fraser has for the last ten days been here endeavouring through me to make an ar-- rangement with his creditors, which wonld give him some prospect of being able to sup-- Yort his family, which was the sole object h've h.d in V'lew- nnat haino mwunabk a ansd_ Alexander McKenzie ronto. Inloocking over the private letters in possession, I find I cannot, without viol; confidence, make any use of them in House, without injur to _ per I do not wish to Linm. T [ have had in view, rot b-oingv_n;y;;lfv a ored-- tor of Mr. Fraser nor interested in his estate n any way, I am, dear sir, Yours very truly, GEO. STEPHEN. , Feq., M. P. P., To-- vate 'letters in my . 0t, without violating | use of them in this persons _ The SPEAKER took . the chair at three , _ O'elock | say, however, -- tha ' _ accep * | s+Ghair. chair. ) A Speaker v'v'u nm -- statements of the gemtlemen I have named, Ibowh ' T0 bring up his own case for discug. | | ia oomotI ingun;)y (i)wn ot]atements. g H ::y.\\ ~sion, (Uproar.) A | hear.) It will be observed, however, that it She ve | is literally true that both letters confirm tho Th SPEAKE(}'}'&) T;:eL I;l 'z g: ta: a:d nlaYu. fact that a few days before the session open--| Hon,J. S. MACDO® You on C Speaker) ed, Mr. Fraser received an intimation that | --You cannot do %mt. ou canrot call the his presence was required in Montreal. 1/ yeas and nays. (Uproar.) y am not desirous, at any time, to mis-- | _ The SPEAKER--I have given my word as represent -- any 1person, or _two such & gentleman that I would offend no man i, respectable gentlemen as Mr. Kin-- the House. (Hear, hear ) I merely want tho or Mr. Stephens, They have, like myse'f, . gommunication 1 hold in my hand to go toth» a public character to maintain, and I would . ublic press. (°" Chair, chair.") I wan; not willingly injure them in any respect, ftin this manner to go to the courtry Hon. J. 8. MACDONALD--D9es the hon. {Applause from the Reform side of th, gentleman couple me with the charge ? . House.) °* Parliament of Ontario .5 $ECOND PARLIAMENT------FIRST SESSIOH. RECEPTION TO GRAND DUKE ALEXIS. Mr, SPEAKER announced that the Grand Puke Alexis would avrive in the city of Torcnto to morrow, and it was contempiated to give him a rec--ption at the Government House,. He had been requested by Mrs. Howland to invite the members of this House, with their wives and families to moet the Grand Dake at the tGovernment Houss to--morrow evering at 9:30, Mr. MACKENZIE--I would refer to an old proverb that individuals may lie, bus circumstances cannot. One of the geantle: men named was in this city two days befor> the House opened, and Mr Fraser was sum-- mened to Mortreal before the mesting 0{ Parliament. Hon J. S. MACDONALD'S motion for the adjournment of the House was then carried. Mr. Rykert--On Thursday--Act to amend '"An Act of the Province of Ontario intituled "An Act for the encouragement of Agrical-- ture, Horticulture, Arts and Manufactares.' ZL';i;._s of '*Chair, chair." and uproar.) The SPEAK ER--L will read a paper I hols in my hand _ (4reat uproar from (dono, J. 3 Macdonald's followers, and cries from Mr Biake's foltowers of * Caarr, chare.") Hon J. 8. MACDONALD--I day thi down as an incoutrovertivle rale. _ (Uries oi *'Chbair, ecbair,") The S°EAK ER--Order, order. Hon J. 8. MA3jDJ3NALD--The Speake: speaks for the House and not tfor himseit (Uproar.) The SPEAKEAR --1f it is necessary I shali leave my place, and leave another gentleman to oveupy it/ before I shall be prevented -- (Toe resaaining words were drowoed amid tne uproar pooseedinog from the supporters of Hon J. 8 Macd--maid, and by the ccies of "Uhauw, chair,"' coming from tuae follo wers [ of Mr. Hlake.) of Mr. Blane.) C Hon. J s MACDONALO--I wish mem-- bers to hear me. Elay tirs down as & broad, incostrovertible rale, (Uries of "Chair, chair.") Mr. PKRKIMNCHE--I rise to say (cries of /-'Cha'r, chair."); Hon, J,. S MACDONALD--Mr. |Speaker {cries of '"TChair, chair.") Mr. PARDEE--The member fos Corawal! is not supposed to know what the Speakter is abovt to say." If tne Spsaker wishes to pro ceed in gn nnparliamentary course, he wi} not be sustamed;, nut the member far Cora-- wasl shonlid wat until the Spsiker saya what he intends to say. (!Mear, hear.) and loud cries of (Chair, chair.) The SPEAKER--I have the privilege to make any communication. I wiil not gyo beyond the bounds of dae courtesy. (HMea:, hear.) I pledge my honour, as a gentleman, on no account to use any word which can re-- coil in any case on any member of the House. (Bear, hear.) Hon. J, S, MACDONALD--I shall not hbe put down if I stay here till to--morrow mora. ing, (Uproar, and criesof '"*Chair, chair.") Mr. GOW--The Speaker should be al-- lowed to go on. The member for Cornw all ean object afterwards,. (Cries of "Chair, The SPEAKER--I havo, it would seem, lost control of the House, (*"* Chair, chair,") The House adjourned at five e'clock. Hon. J. S. MACDONALD--I will go on. (Great confasion, and cries of «"Chair, chatr.") Mr. GOW--The chair must be obeyed. (Cries of "Order," and * Chair, chair.") Hon. J. 8. MACDONALO--It is a matter personal to the Speaker. (Uproar.) Hon. Mr. CURRIE--A gentleman of such long standing in Parliament as the late Pro-- mier should not refuse to obey the chair. {Confusion.) 7 9) NOTICES OF MOTION. Hon. J. 8. MACDONALD.--This is not the place. (Cries of "Chair, chair.") The SPEAKER --Then gentlemen who are in favour of the Speaker will pronounce an oiinion. (Uproar from the Conservative Renches.) Mr. BOULTBEE.--I shoald like to say ene word,. (Uproar.) Hon, J. 8. MACDONALD --I lay thi down as a rule, (Cries of "Chair, chair." I say the Speaker is the Speaker for th House, and not for himself, This is th ground I take, I have no other objection The SPEAKER--I have higher authorit than the member for Cornwall for what I ar doing. wants to raise a personal qusstion {(Uproar.) The members on the Reform side of | House rose to be counted. The members on the Conservative si when asked to rise, responded with furi when aszcd to rise, ret:'ponded with iuri bursts of "no, no," and loud cries of d AnCc€. Hon, J. 8. MACDONALD--I stan for the liberties of this House. (Groat fusion.) We are a demoralized House -- allow the Speaker to rise. (Uproar ) | Bpeaker has any cause of complaint. -- mendous uproar, on Conservative ber mnd cries of "Chair, chair," from Reform benches.) I will go on till to--morrow mora-- Ing. There is no motion before the Chair There is nothing before us,. If you proce« | with;the business of the day I have nothing %o say. (Cries of "Chair, chair,") 7 Hon. Mr. CAMERON--I want to say-- {Cries of "order".) The SPEAKER--I want to know if t! Speaker will have the same right as a p: vate member of alluding to a communicati( reflecting on his honour,. (*'Chair, chair. Hen, J. S. MACDONALD--You ha mo right, (Confusion.) Mr. CUMBERLAND, in a few v regretted the unscemly scene that had place. If the Speaker were in the : every member would uphold his dignit; A slightes teady to make his statement to the Hou: and he could assure him he would say not ing objectionable towards him. Hon. J. S. MACDONALD said he would have no objection to allowing the Speaker to correct any erroncous statements that had been made outside, or refute any slanders upon him, But he laid this down as a broad principle that the Speaker is the mouth-- fece of the House, and that if he is slan-- s«ynd he must remain quiet, and it was for the House to defend him,. The Spseaker must say nothing in the House except as he speaks for the House, He went on to reler to an occasion when he himself was slandered when he was Speaker, and was defended by the father of the hon. gentleman that now calledhim to order, (Mr. Prince), But he said nothing himself, although the debate lasted three hours. In thatdebate it warlaid dowanss Parliamentary law that the Speaker had no right to defend himself, but the House must do it for him, He could go further and say that his duty was to keep order in the Houss, and if he was not able to do so he shou'!d resign the chair, If the Speaker had beon attecked in the press he ought to answer it through the press. Hon. J. 8. MACDONALD--The Spsak The SPE AEER--The yeas will please t Mr, SPEAKER said that althoush he did not agree with the hon. member fo.r C i9 ,.",,,.' yet in deference to the views of m ",r;' members that the House was not th ; Drovenl tribunal in which to bring the matte o o would not press it any f inther ".l'}'jl',' e send his answer to the i,u",;'{; , 38 .nC t same time he housstly be Heved thathe hnads right to take the course he h i pben t take, As to the remarksof the hon. gentleN that he should resign hbis seat if he could 10 preserve order, he would say that he might ' take that course. He thought he oug~6 © _ have been allowed the courtesy of making | rtatement to the House; but as thas been denied him, he would make 1© throu the press, and he hoped the hon. memb would give due attention to it, Mr. PRINCE rose to reply to some refer ence the member for Cornwall had made him. s ematry j nor ia t3 o the Ho: eu. -- Ta: > false pos oguld mak s at stak from sta more prop ahonlcf ¢ ngn tukad

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