The Ontario Scrapbook Hansard

Ontario Scrapbook Hansard, 11 Mar 1874, p. 6

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the cstimation of the people they ropre gented. Men of honour did not require an 10ath to give them credence among their fol-- Jlows, and if hon. members were more carefal of their speech, and irdulged in less of par-- sopality aoross the floor of the House, they would gain sufficient in respect to exempt them from submitting themselves to "= swora. -- He thougat the privileges of Parlia mest should be well and safely guarded, and he was proparcd to vote for the amond-- ment of the Treasurer, Mr. BOULTBEE said hs found himsel! in some difticulty with regard to the examina: tion of Ministers under osth, and was unwil-- ling to do anything that would bes likely t> lower the dignity of their position®" He was quite prepared, "however, to say that mem-- bers of the House should not be exompted from giving evidence befors a Committes un-- der oath. Mr. RICHARDS said he did not take the high grounds of the Treasurer in this matter, and would vote against his amendmant. ' Ha thought the amenament of thse hon, mombar for London too wide, and objscted to it alzo on the ground maintained by the hon, mom-- ber for Stormont ; he would, therefore, vote against it also. Ths motion itself was one which he objected to, and he would votg against it too. He knew himself as a mom-- ber of a Government at one time, that there were many communications batwsen them selves and their supporters and even feuonl outside, which could not be called State secrets. and which, uevertheless, is would be very improper to make public, Mr, CUMBERLAND said he was sorry to bave to differm, upon this oc:casion from those with whom he generally acted, He considered the pro-- rositions of the hon, members on his side of the House were dorogatog to the dignity of 30 House, and not likely to raiss them in . Mr. SINCLAIR said ho thought it was only fair to the CUommissioner of Pablic Works to say thit this resolation did not arise from any Gifficuity with him. That bonuourable gontleman -- was . not re-- quired to give evidence; he never refused to dgo #o, and he offered him« self voluntarily to make his statement under oath,. (Hear, bear.) Hon. Mr. MoKELLABR said ho had offered to make bis statement under oath, for he had rothing to tell but the truth Mr., HARDY and Mr, FAREWELL cor. rcborated the statement of Mr, Sinclair, Aiter a few words from Mr. Prince, the Hovse divided on the following amendment to the amendment;-- That all the words in tho amendment after " House," be struck out, and the following inserted in liea thereof, * lt is expedient that the evidence of witnessos, whether such wit-- nesses be members of the Exscutive Council, or of this House, or not, should be taken under oath,." YEAY.--Messrs, Ardagh, Boulter, Boultbee, Cams-- ron, Code, Deacon, Fitzsimmons, Gittord. Harailton, Lauder, McCall, McGowan, McRac, Meredith, Mer-- rick, Rykert, Tooley.--17, NAYS.--Messrs. Rarber, Baxter, Bishop, Caldwell Chishoim, thristie, Clarke (Norfolk) Clarke (Welliag-- ton, Clemens, Cook, Crooks, Crosby, Bumberland,. Currie, Fa.rewelh Fraser, Gibson, Gow, Grahan Crange l!une'. ardy, Harrington, Hodgins, McKei-- isr. McLeod, McManus, Monk, Mowat, O'Donoghus Oliver, Pardee, Pm}:hl'ntun, Prince, Richards Robinson, Sexton, Sinclair, Smith, Springer, Striker Watterworth, Woebb, Williams (Dur;um), Williams Hamiiton), Wilson, Wood--4s. Of eBaracter and probity. He recounted the Yarious privil which in times at-- tached to th:?m.oe of a memgo':'oi Parlia-- ment, but which had been wisely swopt away in our more advanced ago. He «did not think a Minister of the Crown should divulge State secrets, but he contended that neither his motion nor the amendment 0' the hon, member for London touched that subject, Hon. Mr, MOWAT rose in order to mova the amendment to the ameadment, Hesaid the preper course in the Committes was to re-- ter tLe matter to the Houss when a difficulty aroge, and the House would take action thers-- on. Hon, members might now speak of thesa forms as old, but hon. gontlemen were gen-- unlldy great sticklers for tgele same privileges, No dffficulty had arisen calling for this reso-- lution, and the hon, member desired that the Houseshould lay downanabstract proposition on the subject, which was not sustainable %Pon reference to precedents or sound rseason. 3 h:ul:ilofion of tthh:t ho::.h mlb:;i:" worded in a wa no the know. ledge of a finhhr of tge Crown. ercent Which was lost on the following di . ision:-- State secrets, should Committee, The pri Treagurer oontendos ' vileges; they were th« pared t« disposed, thereof; LDat In pr0U--UC--B* _ _0 . committees of this House reasons of State policy preclade members of the Exeontive from unnecessarily . disclosing c_m_:hdentul matters coppected with _ their position; that on grounds of public policy communications between members of the Nxeoutive Oouncil and their subordinates respecting such affairs, sre by law confidential; that by British copstitutional use it is for Ministers of the Crown, having the confidence of I'Atllagnen*, to determine from time to time on their re-- ponsibility as such Ministers what papors to produce and -- what communications to make to Parliawzent; that a like duty _ and_ responsibility bolong to Min-- sters of the Crown or members of the Executive Counsil in regard to any Commit-- tec of the House, and to submitting them-- selves for examination before such Committes tounckhing guch matters, unless otherwise or« dered by the House, Mr. CAMERON objscted to the amond-- ment altogether, and especially to thas por» tion which declared that communications with subordinates of the (Government should ~e consldered confidential, Ho deciared it was the only safety, the public bad for the honest administration of public affairs, that Committees should have the fullost power to examine all officers _ of dopart: ments, and ho contended -- that this amerdment . should have the effeck of de-- barring the representatives of the psople from legitimate sources of information,. _ He likewise argu:d that upon thit grinciple all information with respect to the Central Pri-- son, which was marked ! Confidential" might have been withheld. He took exception to the argument of the hon. member for Nia: gara that any communication should pass be-- tween any member. of the House and the Gcvernment which conld not be produced when asked for, and asserted that no such communication hed ever been made to him while a Minister of the Crown,. Mr. RICHARDS still held to his opinion as to the inviolability of communications passing between members of the Govern ment and members of the House, but object-- ed to that part of the amendment of the Premier which referred to subordiuates, and expressed his determination of voting against The House then dividsd upon the amend-- ment moved by the Promier, as follows :-- YEA9Y.--Messrs. Barber, Baxter, Bishop, Caldwell Chishoim, Christie, Clarke (Norfolk), Clarke (Wel-- iiugton), Clemens, Cook, Crooks, Crosby, Currie, amrewell, Fraser, GCow, Grah--im, Haney, Hardy, Bar-- rington, liodgins. McCall, Memellar, McLeod. Mc-- Manus, Mowat, O'Donegshue. Oliver, Pardee, Patter-- gon, Paxton. Prince, Ropinson, Sexton, Sinclair, smith, Bpringer, Striker, Watterworth, Webb, ):'lllhl\ms (Durham), Williams (HManiiton), Wilsou. W ovd--44. NAays --Messrs Ardach, Boulter, Cameron Code, Cumberland, Descon, Fitzsimmons, Gifford, Hamii-- ton, Lauder, McGowan, McRae, Meredith, Merrick, kichards, Rykert, Scott, Toolsy----18. The amendment, as amoude?, was then put and carried on the same division, as was aiso the criginal motion, as amended, LINE FENCES, On the motion of Mr, PRINOE, the Bill reepecting line fences was read a third time and passed, JOINT STOCK ROAD COMPANIE3, n the motion of Mr, SEXTON, the Hoase wont into Committeo on the Bill re-- rpecting Joint Stock Road Companies, The vartous clauses were adopted, and the Bill reported without amendment, ATTACHMENT OF DEBT3, On the motion of Mr. MEREDITH for the gecond re:fi,ntfi of the Bill to amend the law relating e attrchment of debts by ex-- empting the wages and salarios of mechanics and others from liability to attachment thereunder, Hon. Mr, MOWAT requestel the hon. gontleman to leave it over until thera would bo a fuller Hduse. After some discussion, this was agreed to the Government pledging themnelvoglr to qlvc; Mr, Meredith an opportunity of moving the sccond reading, as he desired, The House then adjourned at midnigl_;t.

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