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'ow cays of th friend knew :s make the sligh those on the op those on his ow invited to take days of the sess iSsued th uU stt unds i. Asi ut A0B s with the ques.ion of a member's seat, was, that the utmost possibls caution w sary,. 'That was the ruie in England, a always been so im this country licew! prosent case was a now one. -- 'The cire: were in some respects peculiar, and it s the Government that it would b> a case too much haste should not be inice: i which that course should be sds was customary, viz., to refor the :mat: Committes on Privileges and El ; lo hon, friend suggested a numbor o c ... no such action had beon tais», bu --~ . poin: out that the circums anc -- .. :; diff=rent. 'The hon. genticman opposit the Engliss Houss of Commons, when a wf this kind was ratssd. and Wouan +ha to mil NC vacancy in ho representatio c ectoral district of the Hase Ridinz of eaused by tha electiion of Charles Dru: for that constituency having been adjud. void." HMe recited the course winch n followed in the Courts, ind contended t! was seiz --d of the fact that the seat is vas quored cases to point to tho precedent eonst tuencies being vacated by the deat qual:fication otf members, Hon. OLIVER MOWAT said. in In other cases whoere there is ecvidence of crime or of a {nnon accused of being a fugitive from justice, it has been considered sullicient to Iay the papers formally before the House, but whenever the seat or character of a member is affected the House will invariably proceed with due caution and doliberation, So that the precedent which ho quotes is not a precedent in point at all. do forthwith issue for the election of to fill the vacancy in the ropresent: cad ~ _Hon. . F. FRASER--Not Mr. MEREDITH--The hon. centlomin is discussing a different point. Tuat is where the House is acting simply on a motion for relerring to the Privileges and Eilections,. return. Hon. C. F. FRASER--That is the case here. Mr. MEREDITH--How is a member of the Executive seized of the matter any more than a privat member ? Hon. C. F. FRASER--The Attorney General can say, **I am commanded by His Honour. 8 Mr. MEREDITH--Suppose in the case of the conviction of a member of some crime or felony would it not be perfectly proper for a private member to move in the matter and lay the roe-- cord of the conviction on the table ? UE dopews P m c B CE L. lesvams * fion,. C. F. FRASER--You will find no such diiferent procedure,. Ti he wants a paper brought before the House, he has two ways of setiing it here, cither by a motion, or he can get it here through one of the Committoes, such as the Standing Committeo on Privileges and liiections. HMe has not tried either way. _ ___ _ _ Hon. G. W. ROSS quoted Bourinot as fol-- lows :-- matt k d t t 9 ds ta old 44 Ad A aptute e io s + thhakt Hon. C. F. FRASER--No. Instead of laying the zecord on the tabie and making a motion on it, ho should move that a cortified copy be brought down, printed, cireulated among the member#, and then he could have made a imotlion procedure. mem bers, on it. motion. Mr. MEREDITH-- would I posite a it t s $ * ux one there wourld be proater umneat of his hon, fmend, bus if ied now it would bs extromely d nbver electeod could take his seat all events he contd .. s1 , [3 " SOnt A NEW WRIT REQUIRED Mr, MEREDITH wmoved, "Thas a Mr. MEREDITH--You will find ng M( pdlinbi tss ind id 412009 Yhonever a case q irCumastamgas it _ was o so for referring .t t to the House, If the 1» ew as well as he did slightest difference WPsA d iA ind d enis ue could not take it i of the close of the session, PW sa wsol cb Ew - wdadud WV A :ake_h'u seat for t Sess101, on Whiche yon ' opposite si le own side, if 1 was raisad, and wuen the . ond doub', the practice was s a writ for a new election. tGDITH--What is the doubt VAT said he was comtag to th Y overything at unte it La' e 0 CC CRy 60 ve sile of the House, or to de, if a new member | were seat for the last three or four on whichever side he might sit, he did that is '.uronc(_) to the OWAT said, in dealing a member's seat. the ru e Whan he brings down _ inal a new wri tion of a imembe wresentation of th t when he makes a _¥ NC WISC, l ne citermstan and it seomec * & Case in wh nikepr, but ome B adonted O% r force in the f a wrik were loubtful if the this session, unt!! within a & and his hon, it would not ;!n.e riding, to [4 'or the no such & _ metion the fournals gment of g1,a uzl7 / IUC 41tou8se is seized of the judgment of the Court in declaring that the seat is vacart, I say that this House is seized of nothing of the kind, and therestands on the record his motion trying to get the House to place upon its official record the record of the Court, This shows that he, as a lawyaer, and the leader of the Opposition, admits it to bs of importance for the propor putting of -- his motion _ before. tire ~House 'anft . Baw"" +0 mt VNSV suDinitling it to a committee, i Hon. C. PR, FRASER--The hon, will not give his opinion as a lawyer is vacant, and yet ho says the House the judgment of the Court in declari seat is vacart, I say that this Hons ye eat P 10021 l o Mn dn was quite capible offidoclding out submitting it to a commit Uimanma «ui,1 _"__" . FDvHON Ol a men East Simcoe, with power to sond for and ine p«pers, persons, and records," Mr. MEREDITH contended that th wane Aiunika 222 1+ oao% i. Aa proper one to ref well to remember al not agreed as to whe i Omb Rertuts® Bb ces dBicisschudt iteatch Bc t :5 4 budy, and he knew of the bribing ot nobody. Mo did his best to make the election a fair one, aud the act for which he had vacated his seat was committed by another, who was beld to occupy the position of his agent. It required a great deal of consideration to conclude whether, as a matter of course, the House would interfore where no crime had been committed on the part of the member whose seat was vacant, Ho was not saying Mr. Drury ought to take his seat, but he drew this contrast to show that the case was by which a Court had lhd power to interfere in this matter. I( it was block they shou.d ascert«in it, and they could d this promptly, _ The hon. gentleman had refort to a new wr't being ordered where a memver had' died, an ! also where a member had vacated his seat to take office, but in reference to those cases the course which was talen was provided by the statute, whilso he wanted them to apply that method to a case for which the statute did not provide, if it was settled that the statute did _ not provide for it. Therefore _ he submitted the two cases referred to were no pre-- cedents at all. Then ho referred to a case in which a member had been found guilty of crime, in which the MHouse interfered ind issued a new writ without the question going to a Committee, There was no analogy between that case and this one, _It was one thing for a House to say it would not suffer a member to remuin in it, but it was quite another for the House to say it wou'ld take such action when there was no convictior| against the party. _ Mr. Drury _ bribe | nobody, he sanctioned bribery on the part of nos bady, and 'he know nf the Twinine at ul £24 :my view he had taken was wrong iN W19 i*7" place he would have no difficuliy in withdrawing from it. His hon,. friend imsinuated that this course might be taken tor the purpose of securing Mr. Drursy's election, The (CGiovernment were contemplating nothing of the kind : if Mr. Deury was erabled to take his seat it would'not be throuch any legi--Jation in his favour, Now, it was a matier of groat importance that cases of this lind should be determined undor the statute it possible. _ This was a principle admitted by all piriies, and one on which all parties insisted. 'Thoe old imethod by which elections were tried was fjound to be attended by many great evils and wroungs. The jegislation, therefore, in Eng-- land--aud they had foilowed it to a graat extent hore--provided for the disposal of all cases where it was possible, except in cases of a formal kind, by the me ns which he proposed, HMis hon, friend had seomed to regard this as a case for which the statute did not provide,. Ho (Hon. Mr. Mowat) wias not prepared to eay the statute did not pro-- v de for this caso, They were told that the 'Prial Judgzes of eleciion cases took one view of the maittor, and the Court of Appeal took another, lHe did not Imnow that either party had received any -- official -- declaration -- from -- the judgeas upon this point ; but his honoursable triend represonted tuat the Court of Appeal took one view of it and the Trial Judges another. The Court of Aupeal held that all it had to do was to deat with tho principle of the question referrod to it, and that it was the duty of the Trial Judgos to make out the certificate for the Speaker. 1t seemed in some ofiicial way--not by any declar--| ation or formal document from the Court, but it was said, that the Trial Judges had taken a different view of the matter, HMe did not t.himJ there should be | why they should adopt a courss of an unreason-- abis kind,or that undue haste should be employed, or _ that _ any -- course _ should bo raken which would prevent proper deliberation. _ One advantago of a reference to the commitlee was that liscussion could take place there .n & less formal way than it couid here. If the hon. gentleman was convinced in ths committee that "ae ciaw he bad Luken was wrong in the first -- puttine _ ,¢ ~ "J 2' DPOrtance for the putting _ of _ hijs motion _ before fouse, and _ for i's -- sanction _ ay tion _ that _ theso should _ be or:-r nals of the offic al r ecord of the judgmen THERE sUCH BLOCK UNDER THE STATCTZE ng Of & i] and _ for that _ theso waAs, THEREFORE, xo REASON * vieses _ and -- Elections, the following amendment :-- in the original motion after out and the following inserted referreca :.o the Standing Com« uk s i me n C0% P TTE ®8 P20 EPC ENNN a lawyer that the 8ea t / NY . $ 1000 EUE the question wi th~| hon._ --gontleman the case was the House @x am *| field w o9 ©204 0 PM Chisholm, C l-'x'eonmn. G Uullies, Goul Mart, Lmidl; .\h-Laughlin. Neelon, Pard Ross (MiaAai _Mr. CREICHTOr called -- fact that Mr. fraser had not return of the Cour; be placed in Spealtor, and that a writ issue i The question was then put 0: by tho?[ o. O, Mow:\t. as follo YEAS--Messr3. Awrey, Badgo lanty no, Bishop, Biezard, Cat Chisholm, Cook, Ditt, Dryden, Freeman, Gibson (Hamilton), llilllki'es,.(x'(_)l}]d. GIABAM _ Ha o« p.]) standi] ig House a what is qq amend this d a }ci;,\' lousso ' mravey * 40-- *R ~70N ho 1s him Mr, CREBLIGH Pox--: Hon,. C, E. FRaAsEPIR invoke the rules of the ugui.nlh_n. member, i 8%ior l'_ qus se t 2 it Yoting on this question, excep; House, which forbid 4 Wam LE rerdptdnttiinttatin lt iss d ds 3 S i & 21 4. 1 5 ++ or not he was meurabiy insans, Hou. C. 3, l'"li.\:'vlili---l,-'uduubtcd';y so, bu gacn member of the House had no doubt about it 1 contend that in this caso there is nothin: in the records of the HMous@ . :o | show that the seat is vacant. I; is not enough tha there agp> opimons ; we must have proof, M7 own opinion is that Mr. Drury is quaified to sit in this House, and that if he did sit and vocs ho would not incur a penalty for doing so. Tirs member for London has inferred from the ab-- sence of the member for Eas: Simzse that he is not here because he thinks he is not qualified, when as a matter of fact the latter toid the leader of tho Upposition that he had no taken his seat beciause he uidn's think is would be allowed to go oif without comment or criticism, and ha didn't desire to subject himself to that. He had no doubs about his miguat to sit. I am satisfied that if the member tor East Simegoe were here now thore is nothing to prevent him Yabim® on this" anasetcs ons a. I h C1 Nn Paid tal Clpo ulfi.:il} anu not content with the physician under w was. Mr. MEREDITII-- l NO LAWYER WOULD STAKE HIS REPUTATION,. ;on an assertion that he had. What Mr. Mac-- kenzie did was to place his jadaement of outlawry on the journals of the House in an official manner, and two days afterward« make his motion. There is no such procedure as that here to--day. There is not a single word to show that the member for Las\ Simcos has lost his seat, and yet in the snbsence of that record the hon. member for L mndon asks the House to state its opimon that the seat is vacant, -- Now let me push this matter further, Suppsse it was souzht to--day to t ke action sgainst coertain conspirators, Because we bave had the official return of the Commission placed on the tabie of the House, it has beenr here soveral days, and it is stated that two of the Commiss oners concur in their fin ling. He might hive said--and sad rightly--bs ore you take uclion every member has a right to know everything in _ connection with the case, and to have it printed sefore him. You would not have hcard him suzgest that there is no doubt the Commissioners' report is correctly on the jurnals of the House ; he wou'd have been standing by the issue whether the forms of the MHouse hbad becn complied with. And that is what is proposed now, Hoa sugges's that if the amendment of my hon. friend sirries, that--in this day of newspayers and reporters, when pub-- l"ni,).' is given to all the procecding« of this hive said--an action every ; everything -- in and to have it not have chear doubt the Co the journals of standing by th Hon. C. F. FRASER--Why didn't they put themselves to the very slight trouble of moving for a return? They assumse that becauso indi-- vidual members of the House have read the newspapers, this House is formally in possession of this judgment of the Court, but I say that at the very threshold of the position he has not made out his case, and iouse had becn complied with,. And that is hat is proposed now, Ts sugges's that if the inendment of my hon. friend sirries, that--in is day of newspayers and reporters, when pub-- cily is given to all the procecding« of this louss, and when reporters watch on the heels of sery _ Committee--it m'ght be -- possibia r 'the© 'A ttorney -- Gieneral _ to get the a Palda sLe u2 o id ue x 8 down then ? of the Court. Hoehas not succeeded in doing that. -- Moesays this House has nodoubt in this case, but the fact is that this HMouss is no t only in doubt, but I go further, and say that this Housse is entirely without knowledge--that T am only putting it in plain English when I state that this House is ontirely without know ledgo of the case. Mr. MERRICK--Why was it not brought O mR tn V 2 * V Mowat, as follows ; AS--Messrs3, Awroy, Badgerow, Balfour, Ral-- n0, -- Bishop, Bliezard, Cald well, Cascaden, olm, Cook, Ditt, Dryden, Fervris, Praser, nan, Gibson (Hamilton), Gibson (Harony, 3, Gould, Graham, lingar, Harcourt, H.uydv. Lmidla w, Melutyre, Mackenzie, McKim, ughiin, Mc Mahon, Master, Morin. M wat, M, Pardee, Phelps, Rauyrside. loss (Huro..), (Middlesex), Nills, Snider, Waters, Widdi-- Young--44 ir p will | e n Ga proce when he have __ Attorney --Gieneral _ to get the e in some hole and corner and persuado to something wheh they would not do daylight. The sams publicity is given ceedings in cominittee which is iven »cecdings here, and the Attorney--Gen-- P 22 U is ho l:as here. 'Tas treport of the ) will huve to be mula to the the leader of the Oppositron wili ctunity of moving in ihe matter rt is submitted. Take the case l'"ll.\:'slili---l!uduub:cdiy so, but ¥f the House had no doubt about it. at in this cass there is nothing ds of the Housé 0 _ show is vacant. It is not enough that ArGE i) °e mnst have proof, My t Mrc. Drury is quaified to sit that if be did sit and voce ho ¥a penalty for doing so. Th on hnslmferred from the ab-- Feluctusi a L ° #nomver® for hast Simsoe e is nothing to prevent him fon, except the rules of the id a member voting on a himsoif involved, Y--That would forbid him. Et --And s you have to the House agrinst him as A RESPONSIRTLITY bout which we aiil ex-- ayinpatay, --how -- carefully cogead then '! Every ous cireamst:neo> of that Case. e anemoer for BEas: To-- proce. d with undus has'e, h quired anto carefally . ' nrosi. bafora the Hause. that, we had to esui"?ur ivse chorge the gentleman»n That was to illed attention to i0 _ early wach + moved that tl:; the hands of the r ast Simecoe, the amendment show whether ays3 _ of the