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wprs Comservatives ~ the hou, gentleman has ro-- come up, that he is entitled to be designated {erred to. They enthused, no doubt, and said E:.ono of mp; master statesman of DConfederation, fine things about their leador, Why should they and more than equal to the man wholeads at Ut-- not? He was the gentleman who was going tawa,. (Cheers.) But here, of course, we are | to put them in power. These hon. gentlcmen mero piginies. No one among us would profess | opposite were all there. What was .the to such ability, and such aptitude, as for in-- !{u&_uuce made up of? I suppose the Jolin stance, the member for West Peterborough Shieids' were there. and with them a goodiy pro= (Mr. Carnegie), and I am sure I would not for | portion of those who have had their elbows y moment put mysslf on the high lpvel of the | down deep in the public crib, The imnen hon, member for London. He is another [ who were gotting their timber grants were all Henry Clay. No common clay could he be. | thare, _ Public plunder will always make a good (Cheoers and laughter.) But to continue I | deal of enthusiasm, -- But the hon, gontleman say I have always entertained the conviction that wants to know why Sir John Macdonald would s) far as the truo financial interests of Ontario think of doing anything against the Province of weroe concerned it would have been bottor for this Ontario. I can give him a good reason. Any man Provines if the arrangement at confederation had | who has followed Sir John Macdonald'» political peen that all the Provinces should raiss the I career and studied his history will have learned moneys necessary for local purposes by | that he is inordinately fond of power, and those '¥am ayiiy / ® who have been his colleagues confirm history in DIRECT TAXATION, this regard. Then the people would hava taken a much An hon. gentloman--Hear, hear. groater interost in tracing out how these moneys Hon. C. F. FRASER--Hear, hear, the hon. were expended. There is no doubt whatever gentleman says. I suppose thoss who when a man comes in contact with the tax col-- have been his colleagues ousht to be the best lector he asks himself, HMHow much do I pay, and authority on that subject. Itis only so long ago what must I pay it for? And if our moneys had as just prior to Confederation that a then col= been _ raised _ by direct taxation, _ the 'eague of Sir John MacdonalAi4 pub'icly sard that whole _ exponditure would _ have _ boen he much mistook Sir John's astuteness if the very _ much _ more _ closely _ scrutiniz=d. | millions that were to be expended on the Inter-- Those who framed the Confedaration scheme, coloni«l Railway would not be made use of to however, had arrived at a different conclusioa, rotain himself in power for the next ton years, and thought it bast that the Dminion Govern-- (Cheers.) Now, Sir, I say Sir John Mac-- mont should co'lect the ravenus and give each donald's love of power, his strong Province a sub idy. The amount which was thus APPETITE POR OFFICE, arrived at was Iutended to bs Blllfi;iquh for alil t for Aho il & th t 1 1 local purposes, and the undersatanding was that -- not for the love of the mere office or the emolu» ;;, , |>.;y;c»« would not requiro any increase ments which it b ings, is so great that he s@0t-- ;) o_oaf;er, Now, I say that if Ontario had stood fices the interests of this Province of Ontario for ,,;);| ""q all the . othar Provinass with it ! the purpose of remaining in power, and that to s < ce Janfa lerat'on, t thars owsrse not some extent explains the attitude ho has taken so a singlo additional inst.tusom, if there were noths far as this Province is concerned. (cheers.) Sit ing at ail «l i~s o ine coss of covil coverninent John will do almost anything in engineering or by the aiditionte{ Dspiwtmnts that did nat thea maninulation of nublic matters to keen in exist. the increased cost of every -- service APPETITE FPOR OFFICE, not for the love of the mere oftice or the emolu-- ments which it b ings, is so great that he sacri-- fices the interests of this Province of Ontario for the purpose of remaining in power, and that to some extont explains the attitude he has taken so {ar as this Province is concerned. (cheers.) Sir John will do almost anything in engineering or manipulation of public matters to keep in power, -- He wants power, He loves it, He will keep it to the last hour of the last day, if it is possible. Mr. MEREDITH--Hoe will keep it. Hon. 4 F. FRASER--Perhaps he will ; he has had unbounded opportunities to use the msans, and the hon. gentieman comes to his defonco with but scant reason. For, if the people of this Province ever come to realize the i~=ses sustained by Dominion interference in the disputed territory, there is no honest man amongst them, bo he Conservative or Reformer, Dory or Grit, who will say my expression that it has been a shameless phmdyorlng is a whit too strong. (Cheers.) If these limits were out up to public competition then there imight be somo appearauce of disposing of them honest-- liy, but the system which is being pursued goes to show conclusively that the Dominion is being plundered if it bs found that the timber does belong to it, and if the timber belongs to this Province that the Province is being plundered. When it can be told that one of these limits bouzht from the Dominion for $20,000, was less than six. months afterwards put on the Chicago market {or $750,000, it shows the way in which the territory is beinx plundered, Our son of Ontario thinks that this is a good thing ta laugh at. It proves what I said. _ Sir Jolin Mac. dona'd may do just as he likes, and no fear but that this pnatriot will be as mum as a babs, (Laughter.) Whatever Sir Joiun does he may do without any apprehens on of this dutiful son of Ontario saying a single word of con-- demnation, Now, passing from this attitude personal to the hon. gentleman and coming to a question we have been discussing during this de-- bate, and about which the hon. gentleman op-- posite speaks with so much vehemenca, so far as THE FPUTURE OF CONFPEDERATION is concerned, I shall but detain the House for a vory fow moments upon it. 'The hon. gentleman finds fault with the attitudo taken by the Pro-- vincial Treasurer, because ho says that taking maiters as we find them now, that taking cir-- cumstances as wo have them to--day, that having regard to the claims of the other Provinces upon tho -- Dominion, asd having regard to the changed condition of all the Provinces since Confederation, -- it _ would be _ far better for the safety of Confedoration that there shouid be some new basis with regard to our subsidies, In ail that I entirely agree with thoe Provincial Treasurer. I admit there is a great deal of force in what the member for West| Toronto (Mr. Clarke) said when he took thej ground that in the true interests of the people it -- would be far better that so _ far as their local expenditure is -- concerned the moneys to be used for that purpose should _ be gotten by direct taxation, 1 think that the result naturally would be that tho people would take a great doal more active LE Nee 1y CC Hivase amwit t nelrht hawse e ie ooo ine . fathers of _ Confederation. _ Hoere is one of _ them--the Attorney--General--(groat _ ap-- plauso)-- and he deserves ail that the imember for London (Mr. Meredith) unintention-- ally said about him as being a mastermind. (le-- newed applause.) Ho has shown in the controversy avout Provincial Rights, ho bas shown in his conduct on every constitutional qu--stion which A stuguo additioniti insCGiiL,oon, 1i PHSFO Wero MOLMAE ing at ail added co the coss of covil governnent by the additionte{ Dsp wtm mts that did naot thea exist, the . increased cost of every . service now, as -- compared with 1867, would . of itsolf necessitate some roadjastiinent. (Hear, hear ) An other words my poiat is Whiis, that you cannot buy so much to--gay with a doilar as you could in 1857, and the experience the world over is that the purchasing power of the dollar is growing less. Any man who has bhad any businsss experience will ksow that. -- Weli, now, instead of the Pro-- vince being smaller we have srown in popsla-- tion and added to our public institutions, and the cost of administration has been growing. _ It fol> lows just as naturally that the amount of money nocessary to meet these expenditures in 1867 cans not be sufliseut to moset them to--day. Wae, in the Provines of Ontario have managed our af-- fairs and for that we are entitied to credit. (Cheers.) We have been abie to mansgo our affairs far better than any of the other Provinces, and we will be ablo for many long yeis to coime, without any | readjustment, to avoid anything like dirsct tax-' ation, yet it is just as inevitable as any-- thiuz can be that as we go on increasing our| pepulation the time will in the future come when the Proviace will havo to meet its expeu-l ditures by direct taxation, and -- the bur-- | thens we are keeping from the pseople now will| have to be put back on their stoulders, Any| man will sse that tho expenditure wull' advance with -- tha -- developmont of _ our territory, and that the timo will come when it will have to be met by taxation, as come it bhas already in other Provinces. Now, let us discuss this reasonably. _ Wo all have a common interest in what is best, aiter all, for the Province of | Ontario,. Is it better that the other Pro--| vinees sha'll bo getting from year to year from the Dominion Government -- financial assist. ance, without regard to what Ontario's rights | aro, or is it better for all tho Provinces wisely to come together again--not to break up Confedera-- ton, not to break the bond that binds the Pro-- vinces of this great Doininion, but to make it more lasting and more certain to continute in peace by making just and reasonable readjustment of | the financial basis if that bo need{ul. (Mear,hear.) I have heard diffsvent conclusions to--day as to how much|we lost by the scheme/jof the Dominton Act of last session, but what we'are certain to lose if, instead of the threo--fiiths of what goes to the other Provinces we pay the whola five--Hfths is a more serious conside:sation,. -- Hon, geontle: men opposite will not remonstrate when the other Provinces _ go to thoa _ Dominion authorities from time to time and get better terims, but they are quite ready to insist that the Prov-- ince of Ontario must purchase PEACE AT ANY PRIOR, I say that if at that Oitawa the policy is tobe that _ none of the Provinces shall get any money the peo-- ple of Ontario are prepared to accept it. But in-- stead of that being the policy hon. geutlemen op« posite know--we all know --Aliat the other Pro-- vinces have been getting financial assistance, not in the shaps of annual -- sudsidies but in lump sums,--nd under various guises ; and we who have charga of Ontario affairs would ke recreaut to our trust if in the face of what we see going on, and what is absolutely certain to vceur again, we made no sign, and did not indicate that Ontario would not continue subm.itting to thesoe raids by the other Provinces. (Cheers,) I say again, let thore be any needful re--adjustment, and whon such a re--adjustment does take place, let it be underatood as an absor lute and final settlemont. That is the attitude -- Ganfe lerat'on, _ > additional institu$ lt addded io the Cos additionte{ D sp wtm KEOONOMICALLY, o the Province of Untario,. We do not care to ~ get one dollar of subsidy more than we are get:-- ting, but we do care a great deal that the other Provinces shall get these indiract and un-- warranted grants, and that Ontario shall be the milk cow for the whole concarn. A readjust-- ment is the very bost thing that can possibly take place for the Provinces and for the safety cf Confederation. As it is now, Quebsc, for ex-- ample, goes to the Dominion authorities and gets two or three millions to replonish its dimin-- ished treamsury. That can be repeated, and ~if _ the _ other _ Provinces _ do likewise then the day may come when the people of Ontario will refuse to let such a state of affairs go _ on, ard will insist on one of two things, either that there shall be a readjustm=nt of the financial basis which will do iastice to them, orthat indirect subsidies to other Provinces shall stop. 'That is fthe Zatti« itude we Eake.- (Chaefs, )r j f 'La- éRLTGHlOI\I ----I% is toned down in some skilfal sentences from the position the Provincial Treagsuter took. ---- + magen ir? msosl Hos. C. F. FRASER--I am taking precisely the attitude he took. He explained the demands made by other Provinces from year to year ; he stated that whilse they were getting these sums Ontario was getting nothing. I am showing that, taking the basis of 1867, the increased cost of the | puplic maintenance since 1867 warrants it being . said that what sufficed for the Provinces then will not carry them on in 1885, nor in 1895, and that in the future means will have to be socured in some other way than the present; that Ontario can meet its own expendisures now, with the aid | of the present subsidy, but that as the other . Provinces will insist upon making irregular de--. mands at U:tawa then everybody who has an in--. terest in this Province ought, without reference to politics, to have the courage to take the atti~ tude that there must be no acceding to these des mands unless upon some common basis of fair play between alt the Provinces. l hayo nodoubt that inasmuch as Ontario is the firss Province, inas-- much as she contributes more largely to the re-- venues of the Dominion than any other, it will always be open to say that she pays more than she receives. Other Provinces had no right to get a reo«arrangement through the Act of last ses-- gion as on the bas!s pof the population of 188L Mir. MERRBDITH--Does not Mr. Blake want 1& re--arrancement for Manitoba every five yegrl'.' i ffFa m d d un d dn o4 04.A c .40 en Ards itc is ies Micainlic i. Acsir td Hon. C. F. FRASER--I am not prepared to say that Manitoba should not be exceptionally treated, but let us know what these expenses ara to be. I say under the provisions of the Act of 1884 better terms were gziven to some of the Provinces than were warrauted by the{ Act of Con« federation. _ And that leads me to savy a word or or two with reference to the Act of 1884. The hon. member for North (Grey (Mr. Creighton) «pent a good fifteen or twenty minutes in proving, as he thought he did, that we were entitied to no credit whatever for anything done by the Dominion | authorities in reference to that Act, that we had made no -- representations with respect to the Act of 1878, and hon. friends beluad -- him -- almost split their desks ap-- plauding him, and after saying no credit what« ever is to be given to us he turns around, and in just as deliberato a manner says that we were the mslruments morally and entirely responsible for the interpretation that had been put upon the Act of 1873----(laughter)--that it was our fault that the people offOutario had been plundered by the construction that had been put upon that Act. . (Appiause.) Idid not know we were so po-- tent or so power{ul that we could make the chief of Ontsrio's son do a wrong against the Province of Ontario against the dear old man's wish, _ but _ members opposite _ do not seem to realize that the respousibility for that outrage,that the responsibility for that robbery if \thers was a robbory, rests upon the shoulders of those who rule affuirs at Ottawa and control a majority of that -- Parliament (Hear, hear.) Now, a good deal has been said in this debate about the this year. A vory little comforts these hon. gentlomen opposite. (Laughter.) They have been endcavouring tocet something by which they might arouse the people, and for the first time they think they bave found something which will warrant them in making a ery. Oune would fancy there had never been an over-- Eomm | AReme s eneerein s oo ons expenditure beforo at ail. The Provin-- cial Treasuror may -- exercise thoe greatest care and deliberation, he may put his whole mind upon keeping within the estimates and still be unsuccessful, Take the affairs of any Pro-- vincee, nay of any municipality, or of a city like 'Poronto, and they cannot bo managed with-- out certain items of over--exponditure. (Cheers.) It is perfect fudge for people who have any knowledge of public affairs to pretend to say that thero should not be an over--cxpenditure in certain itens. There always will be. Ido not care who happens to be in power, they will always find what I !nave been'layinz about an oversexpenditure to be true. Last year was a year of depression ; bad for the Dominion ; bad for business. -- Every one knows that last year was as bad as ]87&which was another very bad year, and the one in "which the N. P. was promised as a rectifier of trade. (Laughter.) Now, a compan»~ son of our finances last year and those in 1878 will show that in that ye«r we had a large over-- expenditure also. _ We had $150,000 of an over-- exponditure that year. _ Mr., CARNEGIE--What for ? OVER--~EXPENDITURE