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the necessity of drawing a distinction between the two. When I was at Bhorncliffe the guns there being used 'wWere the Lewis guns made by the Birmingham Small Arms Company. It '"naturally aroused my curiosity, and I \asked where were the Canadian guns. [I was told that they had not nrovai it possible to deal directly with the Imperial Government. It did not seem feasonable that if the Province of Ontario wished to retire $17,000,000 of her securities now in Great Bri-- tain in order that she may help Great Britain in this struggle she should have to carry out the transaction through _ Morgan & _ Co. in Naw York and pay a commission to that has suggested that the people who made Lewis machine guns had a fac-- tory in the United States and another at Birmingham. I have had an op-- Sortunity of visiting the Birmingham mall Arms factory at Birmingham. It is one of the greatest organizations for the production of small arms in the world. But the Lewis machine guns manufactured by the Birming-- ham Small Arms Company were not the guns purchased and sent over-- seas. Tells of Complaints Regarding Machine Guns _i'hne guns purchased for overscas by this Government were the guns manufactured in the United Btates hy the Savage Arms Company,--and we a&re onily mystifying ourselves, mysti-- fying the country, when we mix up the gurs purchased in the United States from the Savage Company with those manufactured by the Birming-- ham Small Arms Company. I feel, on account of the mystification created, the necessity of drawing a distinction between the two. When I was at !horncllfle'thel guns there being used rara tha e e ds L D or men of actual experience. 3 'i-i Expects Province to Get Value. "I have no personal knowledge of the facts or details in conrmction Mr. Rowell, dealing with war ex-- penditures, said he would not. be captiously critical, but. submitted there was one particular expenditure which was properly one for the Fed-- eral Government, and that was ma-- chine guns. He quoted Sir Robert Borden, who had said that expendi-- tures on machine guns should be paid out of the Federal Exchequer and borne by all the people of the Do-- minion. Mr. Rowell said he could not see why it should not be provid-- ed by a greater tax upon war pro-- fits of those who were profiting so largely by the war than that this ex-- penditure should be met by taxing the whole people of the Province. As to what had been said as to the value of machine guns he was in bhearty ac-- cord, because this war had proved how indispensable they were to the proper arming of our troops. The leader of the Opposition went on to say he would not have referred to the: matter of machine guns -- but for the' remarks which the member for East Simcoe (Capt. Hartt) made regard-- ing the member for West Bruce (Mr. Bowman). His honorable friend the member for West Bruce had inform-- ation which, he believed, justified him in making the statements h« made, for he had information from officers the facts or details in conrxction with that matter, but as the question has been raised and as my honorable friends have been pressing it in this House, I feel I would not be doing my duty if Y did not say to this House what I know myself in connection with this matter," went on the leader of the Opposition. "I say it in no controversial spirit, because 1 am sure the members on the Government side are as much interested as the mem-- bers on this side in seeing that the Province gets a proper return for the moneys expended. My _ honorable friend the Minister of Lands, Forests 2nd Mines, according to a statement, Ottawa Should Buy Machine Guns. Regarding the Treasurer's an-- mouncement for purchasing $17,000,-- 000 Ontario securities held in Great Britain, Nr. Rowell said he hoped that in dealing with this important transaction the Treasurer would find able to give a statement which show-- ed up to his own satisfaction. The leader of the Opposition maintained there was a deficit.of something over $700,000. Mr. Rowell Says Deal Direct With Britain #4 en --capital and c the Provincial .' the not proved "'Since the, hon member for South-- west Toronto came into thig House," continued ; Mr. McGarry, -- "he has spoken for five hours, and four hours ahd Afifty minutes of that time hava Mr, Dewart and Nickel +' Hon. Mr. MéGarry congratulated Mr. Wellington Hay, the new mem-- ber for North Perth, upon the tone and excellence of his maiden speech, and went on to pay his respects to the new member for Southwest To.-- ronto (Mr. Hartley Dewart)., He had 'always had the greatosi respect for the legal attainments of \r. Dewart, but that member's remarks on the previous evening and during a pre. vious 'debate had causeq him some amazement. "For the first time since he came into this House the hon. member for Southwest Toronto pre. ferred last evening to the leader of the Opposition as 'my leader.' (Laugh. ter.)" s In opening, Hon, Mr. McGarry re-- ferred to the remarks of the mem-- bers for North Middlesex and North Brant with respect to expenditures for "cut flowers" and "brass pokers" at Government House. He declared that the item under the heading "cut flowers". was really for shurbs, plants and bulbs, grass seed and garden tools. As for the criticism about pokers, he thought the Opposition members. were descending to a pretty low level when they wailed about the "Aimmorality and iniquity of purchas-- ing a brass poker to stand against the fireplace at Government HMouse." Hae deplored the "inferential attack on Sir John Hendrie, who, with his lady, has given more of his time during the past two and a half years to winning the war than any other man in the city of Toronto." Cut flow ers for the LHieutenant--Governor's table, declared the Provincial Treasurer, are paid for by the Lieut.--Governor himself out of his private .purse. He added that the Lieutenant--Governor's only son 'had been at the front since the beginning of the war in command of | a battery.} (Applause.) ! Mr. Hay Makes Impression. j as--Bir .Robert Borden was concerned, . he was not aware, as his tetter indi-- ;cated, of the 'matters he had men-- | tioned." > * . The leader of the Opposition refer-- red to the Ross rifle and how those who 'questioned the efliciency of that rifé were, criticized and denounced. His'information was that these guns Jammed as the Ross rifle jammed. It might not be correct, but the matter should be looked into. McGarry Makes Reply > P to Opposition Critics 'Mr. Rowell--'"No, he did not ask, but I will tell you this: that I stated to the Prime Minister of Canada that all the information I have gathered in connection with this ~and some other matters of public interest was at his disposal. I would go to Ottawa [at any time and give the fullest in-- "formation. If the Savage Company | has furnished -- machine guns--they are really big riffes capable of firing .so. many more rounds than a riflié-- if they have not been as required we should get at the facts. Province Should Get Money Back. Like Ross Rifle. . "If. the Government has not got full value for its money the manu-- facturers should be made to recoup the Province for the moneys that have been expended. . It might he that All the guns. were not defective, it might be that some were perfecitly good. There® was no doubt, so far You ? s Mr. Rowell--I was told by officers. Hon. Mr. McGarry--I ask you to give the names. * Hon. Mr. McGarry--Did you him.the names of the officers? Mr. Rowell Would Help. would hawe it looked into Mr. Rowell--I shall not give any officer's name, but I will tell my hon. friend what I did. I was so «urpris-- ed on learning that information that one of my first acts upon my return to Canada was to lay that informa-- tion before the Prime Minister _ of Canada, the one man in the position to reéemedy the matter. _ Hon. Mr. McGarry--Did my hon. friend get an answer? Mr. Rowell--I did, and he said he McG f told: ("l'ry.'VV McGarry--Who ca . I@AT iY flowers "s table, asurer, tovernor purse. H qds in in the city ers --for the able, declared 'er, are paid nor _ himself e. He added ernor's only ont since the command of hours have l 5 &