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One little riffle marred Mr. Sinclair's declaration against any municipal con-- tribution. That was raised by E. Blake Miller (Liberal, East Elgin). who | told the House emphatically that i' the | contribution was reduced to 20 per cent. he "would throw up both hands for | the bill." _ The feature, however, of the three-- hour debate on the second reading of the measure was Premier Ferguson's forceful appeal for abandonment of lpartisan attitude on the question, and for an all--round co--operation that would help to create for the act the very desir-- able objective the Government had in mind. The Prime Minister reviewed the pension schemes of other countries, and of other Provinces of the Dominion: quoted estimates from the Ellis survey to show that the "huge contributions" certain papers had stated the munici-- palities would have to make under the Ontario scheme were comparatively small and, in this latter connection, rather spanked the City of Toronto for its "cry" about its contribution, and for its failure to get "above ward politics" and deal with a big problem in a big, na-- tional way. Mr. Ferguson stressed, as did the two Opposition Leaders, the need for viewing pension payments in the light. of rewards for faithful service to the: State, and old people's rights, rather than mere doles. In defense of the 20 per cent. contribution from the munici--| palities, he inferred that, entirely out-f side of the moral responsibility which rests upon them in the situation, the . municipalities should agree to somel check upon them. especially when they are to be given a wide voice of authority ' in the handling of the scheme. Two Classes. ' At the outset of his remarks, Mr. Ferguson stated that pensions are gen-- erally regarded as State obligations, and that they were of two classes. One is the contributory type, according to which the applicant makes some contri-- bution to the fund; the other the non-- contributory type, in which he is en-- titled to the pension without making a contribution. WITH ONLY SLIGHT OPPOSITION, _ NEW OLD--AGE PENSIONS MEASURE _ GETS SECOND READING IN HOUSE Progressive Leader John G. Leth-- bridge suggested a 10 per cont. con-- tribution instead of 20, and a prorat-- ing of the contribution back to the municipalities, but on every other phase of the legislation he warmly commend-- ed the Government. Liberal Leader William E. N. Sinclair stuck deter-- minedly to his early--in--the--session at-- titude, that the Province should bear | 30 per cent. of the contribution costs; that the Federal act indicated quite clearly that the Province was expected to shoulder that extent of responsibil-- ity; and that the "local control" which the act stresses so much was, in his . opinion, merely a case of the municipali-- | ties doing all the "hard work," with the ' Government having the final say re-- . gardless of what happened. | Both Hands Up. | As expected, th> House was unani-- mous in its approval of the legisla-- tion's aim to bring rolief to the aged poor of the Province. What opposi-- tion developed was voiced _ chiefly against the 20 per cent. contribution which is required of the municipali-- ties,. Premier Ferguson's Old--Ago Pensions Act was given second reading in the Legislature last night. SINCLAIR CRITICIZES "LOCAL CONTROL" During Three--Hour Debate Premier Calls for Non-- Partisan _ Co--operation and Defends 20 Per Cent. Contribution From Mu-- nicipalities --Lethbridge Suggests 10 Per Cent. / O/&/(/- \ _ He stated that the regulations as to | residence in municipalities would be | worked out in the act in an equitable : way. | _ According to the proposed act only a Iperson whose income was less than $365 was entitled to a pension, and the lpenslon might be reduced according to the exces; of the income over $125. Mr. Ferguson went on to refer to the | British Columbia Act. It was estimated lthat, the cost would be $250,000 a year, | but it has amounted to about $500,000. 'This, said he, might be due in part to the fact that the British Columbia legislation hadn't the benefit of ex-- periences in legislation in other Prov-- inces, and was rather loosely drawn and open to abuses. He observed that On-- [ tario may reap a benefit from the ex-- "The type of legislation advocated by Ontario,"' he continued, "is the non-- contributory system. That is. the pen-- sion is paid without contribution from the applicant. So it is a non--contribu-- tory system, subsidized by the Domin-- ion Government, administered by thse Province, and contributed to by all three types of government." The pro-- jJected provisions, said he, were that the applicant must be over 70 years of €ge, a resident in Canada for twenty years, and a resident in the Province for five years. He pointed out that pension legisla-- tion in Ontario was subject to limita-- tions put on by Ottawa and had to come within the Dominion Act to get any benefits, and he outlined the Ot-- tawa attitude that if the Provinces pro-- posed to take care of the aged, the Federal Government would make a con-- tribution. Projected Provisions. '"There is," said he, "a second obli-- gation on the municipalities or local organizations, at least a moral obliga -- tion for the people of a community to lend a hand to the needy people of that community toward living comfortably in their old age." There were contributory pensions in Germany, Sweden, France, Belgium, Italy, Rumania, Portugal, Greece, Aus-- tria, Spain, Bulgaria, Jugoslavia, Czecho-- slovakia, Argentina and some Swiss can-- tons: and non--contributory in Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Denmark and South Africa. New Zealand and Aus-- tralia are finding the burden so great that they are considering some reor-- ganization to have the applicant or pen-- sioner share in the responsibility. Great Britain, said Mr. Ferguson, is in a peculiar position in that she has a scheme that is practically a combination of the two systems. Up to 1925 she had the non--contributory plan; but then. adopting an amendment in the shape of an old--age insurance act, re-- ducing the age to 65, she worked out a plan wherein there are two systems. But the latter one, on which the pen-- sion age is 65 years, said he, is the one that 'is growing in favor, | -- | _Mr. Ferguson again emphasized that t)ensionirxzg is primarily a State obliga-- tion. "This," said he, "was threshed out to some extent at a Provincial Con-- ference in Ottawa a year ago last Octo-- ber or November. It was felt by the Provincial representatives that the ob-- ligations should be assumed by the Do-- minion, and not that the pension should be charity, but a recognition of the ob-- ligations of the State to give a com-- fortable old age to the needy clderly citizen who has put his best efforts to the upbuilding of the country. That is the basis on which pensions should be considered. This Government has nn other idea in view, and when we grant a pension a person will get it as a mat-- ter of right, not as a matter of grace or charity." He thought that If Ottawa was re-- drafting its pension legislation today that there might be a change in atti-- tude on its part. He outlined the results of a survey of the pension schemes in various lands. The majority of countries having pen-- sion arrangements had adopted the contributory type. Some of those pro-- ceeding on the non--contributory prin-- ciple had changed, and others discussed the possibility of changing. The mak-- ing of a contribution instilled in the mind of the pensioner a sense of right, and lessened the thought of pauperizing people. C ic k @K _ -- B 2 sasidl : Mr. Ferguson described the operation of the Mothers' Allowances Act, and said that the principle in the pensions administration scheme had been pat« terned after the first--named act's opere ation. "In the first place, the recom» mendation must come from some one that knows the individual and his cir-- cumstances, and whether he is entitled to consideration or not. I am free to admit that under th> Mothers' Allow-- ances Board, as you know, the County Council appoint two representatives and the Governor--in--Council three to the local board, and I have always felt that more responsibility should be placed on the local authority, who contribute half of what is paid out under the Motkers' Allowances. The Government reached the conclusion, therefors--and Mr. Ferguson did not thin'k that the opinion expressed by certain individuals in regard to pensions reflected the at-- titude of the general public. In the working out of the proposed schems the Government had felt, he said, that the initiation of every move toward per-- sions should come from the local mu-- nicipbalities where there was adequate machinery for investigating applica=-- tions and the means of knowing who was entitled, and who was not en-- titled, to reward in their old ago. Allowances Act Principle. periences of the other Provinces. He stated that the Ontario Govern-- ment was informed by the Manitoba officials that the estimated cost there had been fairly accurate, and that On-- tario might benefit from sections of the Manitoba legislation. He pointed out that both Manitoba and Alberta ask the municipalities for contributions. In Alberta the rate was 50 per cent. Do-- minilon, 40 per cent. Provincial and 10 per cent. from the municipalities. Other Experience. He emphasized that the Ontario Gov-- ernment also had the benefit of its ex«-- perience with the Mothers' Allowances Act, which was similar in principle to the old--aged pension proposals. _ _ _ tion." He noted the cry from Toronto about the extent of its contributions, and that it was being shouldered with a burden by the Government. "And I wonder." said he, "how many millions of dollars have been spent to make all roads lead to Toronto. I wonder if the fact that Toronto was chosen as the Capital of the Province has no advantage to the citizens of Toronto. I have figures which T might give some day to To-- ronto to show what advantags comes to tnis city from the fact that +h university is cestablished here. I can trace $5,000.000 spent in Toront» an-- nually due to the university. I have na objection to Toronto stating its case or to any other place stating its case, but in a big problem like this let us get above ward politics and deal witn ijc in a national way and get co--opera-- Mr. Ferguson was critical of the people who talk of an increased tax burden in On®Mrio. He deemed their argument a fallacy. For, said he, the revenue of the Province came not from the ordinary citizen, but from the people who made use of the established services of the Province. For instance, said he, he was sure that John G. Lethbridge, Progressive Leader, did not contribute a cent to the revenue under the Liquor Control Act. P f l Mr. Ferguson declared that there was a wrong conception of reveniue taxation,. ! There was only a small tax on the mu«» gnicipali':ies and the most of that was | in the levy for highways. He declared |that there had been no complaint on | the subject of municipalities contribut-- l' ing under the Mothers'® Allowances Act, He pointed out that a bulk of the taxes | of the Province was paid by large com-- panies. _ "Some One Lacking." _ Mr. Ferguson referred to Mr. Leth-- bridge byrgginting at him. Mr. Sinclair thoughs for a moment that the Premi--r had made reference to him, and asked: | "Can't vyou make enough without me | helping you?" But the Premirr stated: !"I was picking the righteous over | there," and nodded toward the Progros-- Isive Chieftain. As for "talk in the press" of "huge contributions" by the municipalities he said: "I cannot help but feel that som* one lacks perspective and an intelligent investigation."