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Lo Gm e O oume 20 uind not be said exactly how they would lessen or increase the number estimated as coming under the Provincial pensions plan. There are, said he. 185,187 in-- dustrial employers in the Province. Of this number 61 firms employ 56 per |cent. of the workers and those firms all have pension schemes. He thought that there would be 1,700 'people in unorganized districts who would get pensions under the Provin-- cial plan. «_ _ He emphasized that the Government had amended the Parents Maintenance Act to compel the support of parents by the families that were financially ¢\ble to do so. 'Absurd Statement. Of the 21,000 he referred to the ma-- jority were in urban districts, said hs, but there was not a very marked dif-- ference in their locality. It was rea-- sonable to believe, said he, that all over the country there were people with limited means living in small villages. He deemed "absurd" the statement at & Toronto Board of Control meeting that people with small means were moving into Toronto from the coun-- | try. "The moment the House rises." he isaid, "we will undertake to negotiate the agreement, which is a formal thing, |and start to work up the administrative machinery of the act." Powers under the act would be sufficiently wide to provide for the appointment of the wisest, most sympathetic and most suft-- ficient tribunal that could be found to han'c'!'l'e th'e lLegislauon. It was possible mendations to the Central Board, and . be able to give them special informa--| tion as to whether the pensions should | pass or not, Because the Central! «Board must always have authority to _ review applications to prevent impo-- sitions. The local board may refus® i an application, and the Central Board, on appeal, will have the right to take i<the matter up with the local board. and determine whether or not an error has been made. Or the Central Board might feel called on to make further investigation by special officers where it thinks improper representations have ; been made, or where the local board may have been mislead. 1 Hon. H. C. Nixon (Progressive. Brant County) asked if this policy would apply to the Provincial hospitals and the Premier answered yes. There was no reason, cither. said the latter. why the same policy of payment should not be applied to all the homes for the aged which are to be found in the Province. All the principles of the legislation were to be found, he stated, in either the Dominion legislation or in the Mothers' Allowances Act. and the bill, as a whole, had received the approval of the Minister of Labor at Ottawa, and officials of the Department of Justice. Under Allowances Board? Mr. Ferguson went o r to explain that although the Federal legislation did not provide for money to be paid to insti-- tutions, yet. in the final analysis, with the money being paid to the individual who might choose to remain in an in-- stitution, it amounted to the same thing, and he did no* anticipate any diffi-- culty on that score. In reply to a qusstion by E. Blake Miller (Liberal, East Elginn the Pre-- mier said that, so long as a citizen fulfilled the conditions, it did not mat-- ter whether he was in a house of in-- dustry or not. HMe would be entitled to lake the money and walk out if he g:eased to do so, or n misznt make a rgain with the institution authorities to stay on. "'Now, if honorable gentlJemen agree that it is a sound principle that the local authority should have a voice in this matter, then I say, aside from the moral obligation that rests upon them to assist in the care of aged people, that they should also have some financial re-- sponsibility in the maiter, so that they will be carsful about it." Will Make Them Careful. I might say we are not wodded to it------ that: it would be a wise thing to say to the county authnorities: Now you can @appooint »® bnard. You know your own people bost, an'k they will maks> recom»e o( 3 rebk-- ZRz2z w4 "And so we oppose the 20 pex. cent. contribution from the municipalities," said Mr. Sinclair, "on the ground that the Federal contribution is made..to obviate this very levy and on ; «Lbe ground that the municipalities Rave quite enough taxation to bear. at the present time." Rre The Premier had made light, .. he stated, of the municipal levy... .Well, | _ "I think," said he, "that the »mu-- | nicipalities should be prepared to. under-- l'akw to assist the Province. Por every | $120 that is paid the Province pays Is'?:z or $6 a month and the munici-- (pamies $48 or $4 a month. I think the municipalities should be prepared to take a financial resnonsibility for a reasonable portion of the cost..> I hops that after the discussion we will reach a conclusion in which we unanimousiy concur and know that we have --den* a great thing for a deserving portion ' of our population." ® ; "Read a Lecture." o | _ Liberal Leader Sinclair referred caus-- 'licany to the Prime Ministor's plea for non--contentious treatment of the pen-- sions question, adding that Mr. Fergu-- son had never consulted him in regard | to drafting the bill now before the Leg-- iislature. He had, he said, considerable provocation to be contentious on the question, if he wanted to be, for at the introduction of the bill, the. Premijer had issued a statement in which he., Mr. Sinclair, had been "read a lecture." Mr. Sinclair agreed with the Prime Minister that the duty regarding pen-- sions rested primarily with the State. and that the pensions, themselves,--were not to be viewed in the light of doles. But, argued he, if it was the State's responsibility in the first place, and the Dominion Government had..con-- tributed 50 per cent. in that connection, surely the Province had to admit that it constituted the other half of the State. Certainly, he said, the munici-- palities and counties could not , be classed as the State. and moreover. it was apparent from a study of the_ Do-- minion legislation that Ottawa intended that the Province should pay the other 50 per cent. of the pensions contribu-- tion. (A SX¥ | % Quite Enough Taxation. A "So," said he, "the ground appar-- ently is not so well set that any one can ask that there be no argument on the different phases of the bill}" ... | _ _He painted a "reasonable picture" of | what would happen under the proposed l act. The average pension will be about |$235. On the basis of half of this to be paid by the Province and municipal-- ities the cost for 19,000 people in the organized districts of the Provimnce would be $2,235,000 and the municipal-- ities would pay part of this. The pen-- sions for the 1,700 people in the un-- organized districts, the cost of which is borne by the Government, would [ total $196.000. The total cost of pen-- | sions to the Province and mtnicipal-- ities would be $2,431,000 witHotu¥ in-- ; cluding the administration costs.s~~" _§$2 for Every $1. 5. He relerred to a social side of the auestion, the re--assertion of self--respect in the old man and old woman when pensions were given to them as a mati-- tor of right, not philanthropy. He felt that this principle would make a great Cifference in the lives of these peop!s and in the Province generally. -- & "Every one knows." said he. . "tbat nobody enjoys a political battle more than I. But I confess that I don't like party divisions over what I might call social or humane problems. Let uy get together and put the force of public cpinicn behind this." 4 a & * He stated that the regulations gov-- erning the length of time of residence required as a pension qualification in a community would be worked out carefully under the proposed act. He regretted the "absurd statements" that were "creating unrest and worry in the minds of the people" on the old-- age pensions proposals Again he re-- ferred to the statement of people of limited means coming to Toronto, and said: '"Despite the attractions of this {air city, if I were free I'd hie me back to Kemptville, and I think you'll find that the other aged poor are doing the same thing." Mr. Ferguson stated that he would be sorry indeed if anything but a. go-- opcrative spirit should develop in con-- sideration of legislation of the old age pensions type, hi' hy The Province would pay $1,341,.000 of the pensions for the 19,000 people and the municipalities $894.000. : Can-- sidering the wholc situation, .said. he, the Province would be paying ,praitg- cally $2 for the $1 paid by munici-- palities. : | He agreed that . disqualification of ian entire boarding house or rooming ihouse----that is, placing a drinking | ban on all rooms--for the misdemeanor : of a single lodger might work a hard-- | ship in many cases, but he stated firm-- | ly that any proprietor caught break-- 'ing the law should be "declared 0@* | _ This intimation from the Prime Min-- |ister was elicited by Progressive Leader |John G. Lethbridge during the second | reading of Attorney--Gencral Price's bill 'amending the Liquor Control Act to | the extent, chiefly, of increasing penal-- lties in some cases and reducing them in others. | _ Only recently, a cry from Ontario ; hotelkeepers for cither a ban on rsom | drinking or the authorization of beer | and winc drinking in dining rooms was ;'met by Mr. Ferguson with the firm ) declsration that if the hotelmen de-- | sired room drinking taboced their wish ' could be granted. And in view of his-- | strong opposition to beer and wine by | ! the glass, it is safe to conclude that !any proncuncement he may make to' | the House before it rises will be in | | the nature of an investment of the : Liquor Control Bozrd with power to| fregulate this room--type of drinking. i; 'Bill's Second Reading. | a conviction--evoking any particular discussion. Albert _ Pinard, Liberal / member for East Ottawa. raised an' objection to the clause, claiming that the Government was trying to take; away from citizens rights that were given them years ago. His demand that the clause be stricken from the amending bill entirely was met by the Prime Minister with the statement that the Liquor Board might well handle the situation. Mr. Pinard claimed that the board already had too much power. Mr. Ferguson then suggested that the : bill be sent on to committce, when some j amendament, giving the board a discre-- | tionary power. might be submitted. Law--breakers "Out." NEW POLEY LIKELY ON ROTEL DRINKINC PREMIE® ANNOUNCES Progressive Leader Lethbridge agreed with the Prime Minister that the pen-- sions bill was one of the most important | pieces of legislation that had ever®coms ibe!ore the Ontario House. He son-- gratulated Mr. Ferguson on his survey _of the situation and on his appeal for co--operation on the scheme. "The' bili, he said, was '"in the right direction ," and one of its strongest points was the furnishing Municipal Councils with the right to appoint boards whose duty it would be to pass on all pension, applica-- tions. He felt that the needs of eligible old people would be better looked after in this way. Establishment of an all-- Provincial Board would have, in his opinion, afforded the municipalities the opportunity to unload many applicants on the Province. % U CF, day Mzrek§ .22 Contrary to expeciation, this second reading proved a mild sort of affair, with only one clauss--that provic-- ing for disqualification of premises on From Premicr Ferguson the Ontario Logislature yesterday had the informa-- tion that the Government at the pres-- ent time has under contemplation some new policy on the questicn of liquor consumption in hotel rocoms, and that it probably will be announced to the Holxsg before the present session ends. CLAUSE IN BILL ATTACKED said Mr. Sinclair, it might be all pright { If taxation were low, but every on« knew, he claimed, how high it was,. Mr. Sinclair contrasted Mr. Fergy-- 'son's survey figures with sestimates. he gave a year ago--when he had stated that more than 100,000 aged people in Ontario were eligible for pensions, and that it would cost the Province approxi-- mately $5,000,000, Now, it was discov-- ered, he said, that not more tha@rw "1 009 people were eligible and that the ay. pense which the Province had figured would be far less. Control Board Probably Will Be Given Power to Regulate