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] Mr. Nixon continued: | Plebiscite Bill of 1924. | _ "Then on March 12, 1924, the previous ) Administration under Hon. G. H. Fer-- ] guson passed a plebiscite bill through ; the House. This is a matter of recent l history. Many honorable members pres-- ent in this House have personal knowl-- edge of this matter. In speaking of this | bill Mr. Ferguson said: 'How was the Government to test public opinion? There are only two ways. The first was to consult one's friends,. and thoss who are in touch with public opinion, and the other was to ask the people to ex-- press themselves on the matter. We chose what we thought was the more democratic way. There is nothing simpler can be conceived by any man who wants to give the Government credit for honesty of purpose.' ¥ __ Uanavurall _ (Minncorvative _ MNttawa North), Mr. Sinclair, Premier Hsnry,| and Mr. Nixcn in reply. | Principle Thrice Affirmed. | Within the exposrisnce of many mem--| bers present, said Mr. Nixon, the Legis-- | lature had aflirmed the principle in his . motlion on three occasions. Never had | the principle bsen ropudiated by the: House. "My only reason for inlroducing the subject at this time is to clear up any unceortainty in the public mind as to the interpretation of the Liberal platform, and whether the statement of former Premier Ferguson on Sept. 20, 1929, at a Conservative banquet in this city, is to be considered binding on the party today, and finally, of course, to put my own attitude and that of this group un-- alterably on record," he said. He explained that he had included both the words plebiscite and referen-- dum in his motion because in principle they might be regarded as synonymous. The Progressives favored a reforendum, in which the people dealt with a defi-- nite project,.while a plebiscite merely fur-- nished a guide for the Government. He mentioned the referendum bill of Sir William Hearst when the present Prime Minister was one of the Cabinst. Other Conservative members now in the House also supported that bill. By Direct Votc. debate was that by Dr. L. J. Simpson (Liberal, Simcoe Centre), who urged that Conservative members, responsible for the Liquor Control Law, should bring all their influence to bear on the Government to adopt measures to re-- duce spending on liquor by at least one-- third of the present amount. Although the Liberals present voted molidly for the motion, the following were not in the House: Thomas P. Murray (Renfrew South), Norman o. Hipel (Waterlco South). William J. Bragg (Durham), and S. C. Tweed (Waterloo North) . molidly fo were not Murray ( Hipel (W Bragg (L Those taking part in the debate were: Mr. Nixon, Thomas J. Mahony (Con-- servative, Wentworth South), Dr. George A. McQuibban (Liberal, Wel-- lington Northeast), Wilfrid Heighington (Toronto--St. David), Dr. Simpson, A. *"I am of the opinion, and strongly of the opinion, that this question s .uld be decided by the direct vote of the electors of the Province by msans of a referendum. It seems to me a question of this kind, so closely affecting the people, is particularly ons in which public opinion should have an opuor-- tunity of exuressing itself in the ballot-- box as freely and as untrammelled as possible." He quoted Sir William on that oc-- casion as saying: Again in April, 1920, the House adopt-- ed a resolution asking the Dominion Government to take a referendum on the importation of liquor, which was also supported by several pressnt Con-- servative members. "And I note that on March 12, Major Alex. Lewis, whose seat was one of the Toronto districts, said: "'This method was in kecping with the beost traditions of the British Parlia-- mentary practice.' Not an Attack on Control Act. "Now, this resolution, Mr. Speaker, is not in any way intended to reflect on the Liquor Control Act," Mr. Nixon pro-- ceeded. "I am very careful not to say anything that will alienate the great support I am sure it will receive from the honorable members opposite. I hope no one will get up and say it is un-- British. We have had such outstanding Conservative leaders in this Province as Sir William Hearst and Hon. G, H. Fer-- guson not only approving of it but using it. 3 "Last year, while the House was in session, Mr. Stanley Baldwin, Conserva-- tive Leader and ex--Prime Minister of the Brilish Mouse of Commons, pledged his party, when and if returned to power, to submit a referendum on food taxes or tariffs. The great majority of the Provinces of Canada, in fact all but Quebzc, have used it under Liberal, Con-- servative and Farmer Governments." Mr. Nixon quoted a speech mad: Tuesday night by Sir George Foster urging his hearers to press for ithe privilege of a referendum on prohibi-- tion. In conclusion, he declared: "Those who claim such great popu-- larity for the Liquor Control Act should not fear to submit it to the vote of \he peopie. Those who are opposed to the act are prepared, as always, to trust the people and abide cheerfully by the result. This resolution leaves it en-- tirely with the Government to say when a sufficient public demand for such action is apparent, and shou'ld not in any way force action on the Government except in this. & m Referrinz to the Fort William speech Cites Mowat Precedent. lof Mr. Sinclair, Dr. McQuibban declared "As a farmer I realize the uselessness that it had resulted in a hue and cry of threshing old straw," said Thomas that the Liberal Party had gone wet. J. Mahony (Conservative, Wentworth Opponents of the plebiscite had claimed South), who followed Mr. Nixon. He that such a system was not British, stated that the Progressive Leader in "The Riding of Northeast Wellington referring only to the plebiscites and is no whit less Britich because it be-- referendum in recent years had not lieves in the principle of the plebis-- gone back far enough in the history of cits," hs doclarea,. "The only way to the prohibition movement. "Sir Oliver get th:s question out of politics is by Mowat, a great Liberal statesman, held m>ans of the plebiscite." He concluded a plebiscite in 1894, and prohibition with a plea that the question be sottled carried by a large majority. Sir Oliver "by getting around a table and talking did not pass a prohibitory law, how.-- it over from the economic, business, ever. He passed the buck. He re-- SOcial and moral aspects." ferred the question to the courts to de-- "Worn--Out Theory," He Says. cide whether the Province had the mr, Heighington, in vigorous tones, power to pass such a law. And after dubbed the plebiscite "a discredited and the question was in the courts for five worn--out theory"--simply the refuge of years Sir Oliver was in the Fedcral parties that had lost the power to de-- Government. _ Another plebiscite was cide things for themselves, and which held when Sir Wilfrid Lauriee was had neither the courage nor the fore-- Premier, and although prohibition re-- sight to trust themselves and their ceived a large majority it was not im-- records to the voice of the people. No plemented by a prohibitory law. Simi-- party had given the plebiscite theory lar finaction followed a plebiscite held a greater chance than had the Con-- by Sir George Ross in 1902. These servative Party in Ontario, and the three cutstanding Liberal statesmen public, generally, had proncunced on it could not be charged with misleading with finality. the public or double--crossing their pro-- At some longth Mr. Heighington hibition friends. But they realized quoted references of Mitchell Hepburn that, in spite of the majorities for pro-- to the attitude of the Liberal conven-- hibition, public sentiment was not suffi-- tion which had elected him Provincial ciently strong to enforce a prohibitory Leader. Mr. Hepburn had declared law as it should be enforced in order to emphatically that prohibition was no improve conditions." longzer an issue--that the Liberal Party "Should the people of Ontario, in the course of time, express their desire for the continuance of the Liquor Con-- trol Act, I will promise you, for tuae next ten years of my life in this Legis-- lature as a member for Brant, to leave this subject off my agenda for discus-- sion in this House, which, you wilu admitl, will be something gained." True to his promise, Mr. Mahony continued, Sir William Hearst held a referendum in 1919. "The result of that referendum did much to disgredit reierenda and plebiscites, and set back the cause of true temperance," he averred, "The electors supported the O.T.A with a tremendous majority. And on the same day in the same poll-- ing booths these zealous prohibitionists the public or double--crossing their pro-- At some longth Mr. Heighington hibition friends. But they realized quoted references of Mitchell Hepburn that, in spite of the majorities for pro-- to the attitude of the Liberal conven-- hibition, public sentiment was not sufMi-- tion which had elected him Provincial ciently strong to enforce a prohibitory Leader. Mr. Hepburn had declared law as it should be enforced in order to emphatically that prohibition was no improve conditions." lonzer an issue--that the Liberal Party He traced the history of the intro-- had goet "out in the open" at last and duction of the Ontario Temperance Act could fight on its record. by Sir William Hearst, who, he said, "I m sorry Mr. Hepburn is not in the we'l knew that by this action he was House today," said Mr. Heighington. taking his political life in his hands. "It wouli be interesting to hear what Fate of Hearst. he would say here. C mc e. & l alk" "Quite Unnecessary." A'I'C-j'l C Confused With Party Politics. |\ _ George A. McQuibban (Liberal, Wel-- lington N.E.) expressed regrct that a !svial problem such as the liquor ques-- tion should be confused with pariy politics. The question had proved a stumjling--block of some political parties and had psen a stepping--stone to power .for others. "In 1923 former Premier |Ferguson declared that he would not hange the existing order without a reference to the people," said Dr. Mc-- Quibban. Rural districts, he said, were in favor of plebissites, especially since the last redistribution had reduced rural representation in the Legislature and increased the representation of urban centres. i While the Government which suc-- cesded the Hearst Administration pro-- fessed sympathy with prohibition, he said, it discredited the O.T.A. by the manner of its enforcement, and doubled _ the permits for wineries. "Of that Ad--| ministration, the only survivor in the | House today is the honorable member who sponsors this motion." Mr. Nixon--Survival of the fittest. Plebiscites, Mr. Mahony continued, were not an honest expression of opinion. In the last plebiscite, he said, many Liberals opposed to the O.T.A., had voted for it in order to embarrass th> Government, and force it to seek re--election supporting the discredited act. Plcviscites, he declared, were inimical to the principle of responsi-- ble government. "No Government," said -- Mr. Mahony, in ccnclusion, "shou'd fear to take responsibility for impcrtant public measures. It is fair-- er. more honest, and more reascnable to get an expression of public opinion through 2an election issue than by a plebiscite ." f Dr. Simpson expressed the belief ecmphatically that Mr. Nixon's motion was "quite unnecessary," in that the quest.on involved had been threshed Jout time and time again. Before direct-- ing his remarks to the resolution proper, i'he took several lusty raps at W. W. Ktaples (Consorvative, South Victoria) for his recenat House criticism of Wil-- liam Nowman's (Liberal, North Vic-- crucified the Government that nau nacted the law."