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first, said Mr. Challies. The delay in forwarding the St. Lawrence project was blamed on the vaccilating atti-- tude of the former Libesral Govern-- ment at Ottawa respecting the de-- mands of the Provinces that Provin-- clal--rights in waterways on navigable rivers must be recognized,; In this the Liberal Premior of Qugbec had sup-- ported the Conservative Premier of Ontario. It was fortunate for Ontario that: further nogotiations would be carried on with a Federal Government plodge a to recognize the rights of the Provinces. & "Much," said the member for Dun-- das, "would be accomplished if an international agreement could be reached on the underlying engineer-- ing questions in connection with the St. Lawrence. I, therefore, submit for the -- consideration of the _ Prime Minister the advisability of suggest-- ing that Ottaws arrange with Wash-- ington for & round--table conference of engineering representatives of_the Federal and interested Provincial Gov-- ernments with similar representatives of the Government of the United States and the State of New York." . Suggests Conference. coal in the SLiteS. LO LiILCEUGUV AAZAEMMN!T: with the Siftons in the exploitation of the Oi:tawa River powers." Liberal Power Policy. Mr. Challies then .turned to the powez discussion at the recent Liberal conmny>ntion in Toronto, and re-- marked: f "A fiocw weeks ago this same Harry Sifton, ably supported by E. C. Drury, iormer Prime Minister, was foisting unon the Ontaria Liberal convention a moss extraordinary resolution on the power situation. One paragraph in' 'he platform reads: 'That this con--> vention Gisapproves of and condenins ihe policy of the Conservative Party in purchasing high priced power from ecmpznics outsice the Province.'" Mr. Challies said that the Hydro. engineers are well aware that the price thn--y are paying for Quebec power-- $15 at the Ontario boundary--is rea-- sonable. It compared favorably with the e:timated cost of power from the St. Lawr>nce. "I have a caveful estimate," said Mr. Challics, "of the cost of power, 'ron the St. Lewrence worked out stricty un the basis advanced by th Libsrs} convention, namely, that navi saticn improverients be financed by powor. It shows that Hydro would have to sell power at $15 per horsepowe to brsak even. I have another esti-- mate by a responsible engineer show-- inz that the price of power from the 'St. Lawrsnce on the basis of the Liberal Party formula would be neare! uJ 318. s C y sc L. ¥Ahaunt winkt. Another plank .n the LiD°TAli Pi&AL form declared against the exportatior of Canadian power to foreign coun--: tries. He said this was & change 0' CPACH. TT 4CA Sa ts nd¥¥th o e S\ it * -- 1 heart, as the Liberal Farty was re-- cponsible for the original exportatior cf Hyaro powetr. k. Power Contracts. After a review of the history of power expansicn in Ontario, Mr. Mc-- Quibban proceeded: 37 7 h m us "Practically every extensive power development in recent years has been based upon some large contract with a big industry, or a distributing unit for power. The underlying principle of taking care of future requirements is sound. It should be practiced in all lines of endeavor. The Commis-- sion has its staff. This comprises a very essential part of its duties, but it does not involve the desertion of the great established fundamental of Hydro, which is power at cost." Maclaren Contract. Relating a reviecw of power con-- tracts, including Beauharnois, Gati-- neau, Ottawa Valley Power Company, Maclaren, Quebec, he went on: "So far the cost of power remains a secret as far as the Commission is concern-- od with its own developments. "Now, let us examins the Maclaren contract The first issue of bonds is $12,000,000, the whole issue is $18,-- 000,000. Ontario gets its first power in 1933. What does the Hydro contract do? It pays all opera-- tion costs of the entire company be-- fore depreciation, and in addition one and a half times the intsrest on the entire issue of $18,000,000 worth of bonds. The interest on $18,000,000 at 5 per cent.. at which the bonds are issued, is $990,000, therefore the profit from the Hydro contract, after pay-- ing all operation expenses, is one and a half times $990,000, which is $1,485.-- 000. Now, the two contracts provide a total net earning of $2.177,000. Therefore the Maclaren contract cost the Maclaren company $592,000 for 66,000 horsepower, which is $10.50 per horsepower." Some Cross--Fires. "'The Commission is fast becoming & closed corporation. Maclaren, Que-- bec, Bsauharnols and other com-- panies issue their prospectuses, their plan of finance, price of power, and business transactions. They have to do this in order to secure funds from the public. All that Hydro has to do is fill in its cheque and send it to Queen's Park to have it signed. Is there such a situation in Ontario as a surplus of power? Is it a constant feature? Why all this secrecy sur-- rounding it? It certainly would be a strange American company which would contract for a fluctuating load of horsepower which might be shut off at any moment, subject to the a2rch 20 fuse of local demand. If this is ex-- plained by an off--peak load, are there any similar conditions in our own Province which could absorb this power to much advantage? "Veiled in Secrecy." "There are no items in Hydro to indicate the revenue from this source. The Conservative Party has never been blamed for its easy trade rela-- tionships with the United States, buti in this case, although suffering from such a dearth of power that we must import from another Province, the Commission exports large quantities of power to keep the whoeols ofi in-- dustry humming across the !ne. Mr. Speaker, Ontario is already weary of all this full--dress parade, of pleasing specches, of perfumed and benign rhetoric about the activitiee of the Hydro FElectric Power Commission. The whole system is veiled in secrecy. What we demand is to pry off the lid of the Hydro chest and reveal th> skeleton in all its details. "Page 22 of the Hydro booklet states: 'Throughout all the proceed-' ings, the general public must be taken into confidence and kept adequately informed.' This is the code on which they built up their system. Why not follow it? Let all this muddlingy be cleared away. Where secrecy and mys-- tery begin, then something else is not far away. As for the actions and dealings of the Commission, we should see the one and read the other. Compecasute for Exports. "In 1929 the items of export to the United States totalled 122,000 horse-- power, practically the same as we re-- ccived from Maclaren, Quebec. It is an iniquitous thing, analysis. We de-- itvelop 122,000 horsepower at Niagara, export it to the United States, and lthen zo down to Quebec to com-- _ Visibly netllsd, Prime Minister | Henry rose at this point with an ap-- | peal to '"let's get things straight." | Did the honorable meimber (Dr. Mc-- Quibban)» wish to leave the impression with the House, and with the Province at large, that the situation in the sale of the off--peak power al Niagara was to be placed on the same footing as \ the purchase by the Commission of the Maclarsn power? VWas that his statement? pensate and buy 122,000 there, bring it to Ontario over cxtensive and ex-- pensive transmission lines, deliver it to Toronto at a loss probably of 10 to 15 per cent. depreciation. We pay an exhorbitant price on the Quebec; by the time it reaches Toronto it is sky--high. This is the policy of this Commission. This is the policy of this Government." "Mr. Speaker, strange and mysteri-- 'ous it does seem, that this Commis-- sion should shed its virtuous mantle of public ownership--the final ac-- complishment of which is a tals as romantic as any work of fiction--and | parade in the full view of the Prov-- ince and indsed all of Canada, with the accossories of privatse entangle-- monts. I do submit whin this Com-- mission places its part of the con-- | tract in its vault, it does so with the full realization of the details as to !cost, profits and the financial data of \the company with which it is deal-- 'ing. In this House, Mr. Speaker, very | little opposition or criticism _ have | been encountered over these _ contracts ' up to the present time. It was a Quotation of an interview by former Pramier Ferguson and a statemeont by Mr. Magrath on this phase brought Mr. Cooke to his feet. Mr. Cooke--Do you question the veracity of that statement? Dr. McQuibban--No! Not a bit. That's why I'm reading it. Mr. Cooke--What's wrong with the statement then? Mr. Nixon--It dossn't line up with the formeor Premier's. Premier Grows Angry. Premier Heonry--Then how can yoeu confirm such a statement when 50,000 cf that Niagara power was de-- veloped under contracts? Cr. McQuibban resumed his ad-- dres:: Dr. McQuibban--That is my deduc-- tion. ]