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'?&'m of bonds, or some tangible evi-- dence of that debt. The only thing that the Province has to do is to see *"I do believe," he said, "that many of the pitfalls into which Hydro has tumbled have been the consequence of[ abortive judgment and failure to ap-- preciate public opinion. I do not think that any man can carry on a Gual responsibiility of such magnitude as Mr. Meighen's and believe he should relinquish one or the other post. Mr. McCrea asked whether it was bound to have in the House a Liberal Leader "who thinks that the question of the position occupied by Mr. Meighen should have a place in the debate." Mr. Meighen, Mr. McCrea stated, '1is presenting the picture of Hydro to the public, but "he finds it difficult," he declared, "to sit silent and hear false stories put out." Mr. Sinclair--You and I are of dif-- ferent opinions. I submit that we should adopt our power to the benefit Speaking of the members of the Hydro Commission, Dr. McQuibban said that C. Alfred Maguire must be assumed to have "straddled the goat and recsived the password into his most natural haven." Senator Meigheon, he said, is not, because of his position as Senator, able to attend to matters which must daily make necessary consultation and co--operative judg-- ment. Mr. McCrea--What is that? Mr. Sinclair--I intend to speak probably two or three hours on that when I get a hearing. Dr. McQuibban Speaks. "Hydro," he declared, "was on trial in 1910. The market then was limit-- ed for many reasons." He added that the Commission had acted wisely in feeling its way and in not thrusting financial responsibilities upon the people before success was assured. | of Ontario, as Quebec has adopted its After summarizing the beginning of Hydro, Dr. McQuibban said: '"These | contracts became due owing to in-- creasing demands for power. Lasi session the Chairman of the Commus--| sion remarked that I didn't know | much about Hydro. I admit tnere| was much to learn so far as the safety | of this great enterprise was con--| cerned." f | Unaware of Pamphlet. t "No one," he went on, "welcomes criticism more than this Government. We want sound, constructive criticism. Much of the criticism that has been levelled against Hydro is from the member from Ontario South and the member from Brant." The Minister went on to cite remarks made in the course of the debate by W. E. N. Sinclair and Hon. H. C. Nixon. to the integrity of the Hydro--Elec-- tric Commission; to see that this groat institution is not prodded around by men who don't know the first thing about it----so that those men can-- not, with political counsel, conduct a fishing expedition." "Hydro," he said, "is on a fairly sound basis. The interest of this Government is to see that that condi-- tion continues. ° Says Criticism Is Welcome. Of the Chicago pamphlet he said: "Most certairly the yellow pamphlet has never contaminated the pure ideals of this sturdy group, and I do not hesitate to say that not a single member even knew of its existence." of operations occasionally by the Niagara Falls plants was used by some critics as a reason for attacking purchase of power outside the Prov-- ince. Yet, he pointed out, they never explained that the Commission, under joint treaty, could only divert cer-- tain volumes of water at Niagara Falls, and that it was economically sounder to use this at the Chippawa planot to ootain greater power develop-- "Recently a much excited and alarmed Commissioner, Mr. Maguire," he went on, "stated at the Ontario Municipal Electrical Association that the inactivity of the Ontario Power and 'Foronto Power was due to the fact that it was more econoinical to put the water through the Qucenstou plant, because of a great head. Mr. Maguire then continued by pointing to other criticisms, saying cessation "I wonder if he was really serious, or was it a last desperate stand? If his contention is correct, then we have an investment of some $34,000,-- 000 in these two plants which is of little valus," he went on, "the On-- tario Power and Toronto Power. While they are idle the power flows in from Quebec, _ "The great problem of peak power lies in the diversity of demand." he said. "It is not conceivable that all |users ask for peak requirements at | the same time, or for prolonged peri-- ' ods. The varied industries and varied | types of domestic service indicate a | wide range of peak distribution. [and most surely at Niagara the |control of water allotment and ex-- | port to conform with peak Cemands is "This surplus powoer is the amount exported after the long--torm export contract is deducted, and so, at one and the same tims, we have a scarcity and surplus on the same system. This siuirplus export in 1930 was 61,500 *horsepow>r," he continued. an established fact. The fact and truth is that the vast quantity of this class of power flashes along the export wires in broad daylight, and, in a measure, double, and almost treble, the contract of Ontario Power Com-- pany at different periods during the past few years. Quibban stated. "I have no doubt that my honorable friend will hurry and procure figures with which he will attempt to disprove these state-- ments, but what, I say to him, is to produce the files, not for one day or one month, but some years, since the hue and cry of scarcity left the pure ideals of Hydro far in the rear, and allow an investigating body to analyze the story." Visits Paid to Falls. _ '"These are extremely serious mat-- ters, and the end is not yet," Dr. Mc-- "If you visit Niagara and Queens-- ton there seems to be a vast differ-- ence under present conditions," he went on. '"The system, with its high-- tension lines, receives large blocks of power from the contracts already in operation. and makes it unnecessary to keep our own plants busy." we have 920,000 horsepower to meet 867,963 demands, and, as I shall prove later, there was an item of 61,500 horsepower of surplus exported in 1930. Now, 867,.963 minus 61,500 gives us a total of 806,503 horsepower, and 920,000 of Niagara production to meet it, and they call this searcity; and then we have in the offing Beau-- harnois with 250,000 horsepower." Doclaring that he had paid lately three visits to Niagara Falls and Quezsnston, Dr. M:Quiboain said: "We are signing conatract after contract to buy power from Quebec, and that is power which is taking the place of power which is being exported in broad daylight from here to the United States." This power was be-- ing exported, he said, betwsen the hours of 7 in the morning and 6 at night. ( "Let's figure this all out." Dr. Mc-- Quibban continued. "The total avail-- able on the Niagara sys:em in 1930 was 1,170,000 horsepower. Deducting Gatineau, which is 250,000 horsepower, "By conserving the allotted water, as I have pointed out, during off-- peak load and keeping within its average, we can make the turbines of the three big plants hum and give their peak services to the Niagara system and can add to its local dis-- tribution by curtailing its export mo-- mentum. Figures Are Presented. "Operating to its last kilowatt--hour capacity, the Queenston plant cannot utilize nearly all the water available, even withcut conservation," Dr. Mc-- Quibban stated. "Some 18,000 cubic feet a second is its complement. The flow of Niagara is uniform and con-- stant and is 210,000 cubic feet per second and only 50,000 is diverted both by the United States and Can-- ada. This gives the necessary lati-- tude to create a daily average within the bounds of treaty. Therefore, I claim that we can utilize our own plants to peak capacity during peak demands. "Bold Gesture" Alleged. "It is nothing but a bold and ques-- tionable gesture to allay suspicion that all is not well at Niagara," he continued. "By international treaty Ontario has been allotted 36,000 cubic feet per second, and it reads, accord-- ing to Hydro literature, 'not exceed-- ing in the aggregate a daily diversion at the rate of 36,000 cubic feet per second.' The full meaning of this is permission to conserve water during off--peak periods, to accomplish peak-- load capacity by operation of all three plants, with an average diversion. The Canadian Niagara Power Company has a water diversion, but we re-- ceive 20,000 horsepower from their plant and reached a 22,000 peak last year, or 1930. 15e lt madnilicts tatmile »dbuth diiiis .. 642 i1408 on t i c 56 this political bantering and politicai bunk which is put forth to explain delay in the St. Lawrence and other water sites," he said; that the Prov-- ince acquire the available develop-- ments which can be linked up with cur distribution: that it develop its own resources; that the Province, if nPcessary, establish a steam or fuel plant which could assume the role of an emergsncy and peak factor and could be financed by the funds now wasted in buVinfl' irnlune nawaw ) | "What is the result? It has closed 'the 'Toronto Power Company, has | crippled the Ontario Power Company; [ it has entered the stronghold of | Queenston, impelling semi--idleness of | its big units. They say that we criti-- || cize Hydro. God forbid that we should | stand idly by and watch the destruc-- | tion of our entire system. We haven't | a single cent of equity in the whole | thing. lel 5 "This is financial foresight on the | part of the Power Corporation," Dr. | McQuibban went on, "and patriotic |\ blindness on the part of our Hydro-- | Electric Power Coglmission. We ex-- | ported in 1930, 108,150 horsepower. | We imported 250,000, and paid for it, from Gatineau alone, and used 100,725 horsepower out of this 250,000, and | still we are faced with the necessity | of fulfilling our contracts, which have | been signed for some forty years." being maintained and also establish peak detail in all cur plants; that export should be abandoned which is n';_,r bound by contract--"abandon all £1f. se *iEFiLCA & . . i "After one reads this statement, and | compares it with the predicament the }Commission finds itself in; when it | has to settle in cold, hard gold doil-- 'lars for its Gatineau contract for | American power, one wonders just ;wha't it all means," he went on. "I 'haven't any doubt that, in reply, the \ statement wilil b> made that it is a | peak condition which we have to con-- sider, and that we must necessarily | provide for this prak. We have soen ithat we actually use only one--half which can be developed from Ontario's \ own plants in one year, and our pea'k Idxanger point can be well handled: 'yet we go into the market and buy 1almost, one million horsepower to con-- | trol a peak load over a short period of | time, and with these contracts, entail-- 'ing a settlement in full, and not ac-- icording to what is actually used. | These contracts have involved Hydro users to the extent of nearly $600,000.-- 000 in the space of the next 40 years. | "At the same time, we pay for it | whether we use it or not, and pay for | it at the bid of -- Wall Street, which Imust necessarily, at the rate of ex-- | change, cost the Hydro users of this | Province a vast sum in one year's :time," he declared. \"Patriotic Blindness." "Phe purchase of the Madawaska and the Dominion Power interests aro also under fire, but the policy of comp'lete centrol could still have been operated under the circumstances which would have led to a continued faith in Hydro and have undoubtedly saved tens of millions of dollars to the peovole," he went on, suggesting that space units be installed in our plants to anticipate trouble, and fa-- cilitate repair and so enable plants al-- ways to report at peak form; that there be conservation of the water at Niagara to permit the daily diversion _ DB6ris J UUCLINH Lawrence long ago would have been a reality. Suggestions Advanced. "The powers that be in this Prov-- ince are rearing their towers to heaven across the boundary. The Mecca of their faith is the scarcity--doped Prov-- ince of Ontario. They have built Gatineau, and are driving to operation Chats Falls, Beauharnois and Mac-- laren to connect with the friendly wires of Ontario. "The fact remains that we could have built a peak plant operated by steam and had plenty of money left to subsidize rural lines to the farm-- ers of this Province by using only the funds so recklessly handled," he declared. "It is an absolutely vicious principle to supply the peak load of this Province by huge purchase of power contracts over long psriods. If this Commission had been as dili-- gent about its own wolfare, the St. Destruction "And, though our own individual plants in Ontario may idle away their time, this imported power must be taken according to contract, and thus keep these power concerns in constant operation." * * inanced by the funds now buying surplus power." that it develop its hat the Province, if sh a steam or fuel Id assume the role and peak factor and