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March 22 "The Provincial Secretary 'attempt-- Called to Order T4 ed to prove to this House that the COSt _ | meserve Funds. s * : of certain services rendered had de-- ~"rg come to the _ Mr. Cooke continued to argue the creased, in some cases 25 per cent., . s showh reserve funds,' point, and was finally called to order in 1932 as compared to 1923. which are as $34,308,671.47, by Speaker Kidd, and Mr. Elliott pro-- "But let us make one comparison in | | &Nd On themume page some other ceeded to read an article in The Globe the real money of Ontario, namely securities which may or may mot be on Hydro reserves, where Mr. Cooke *wheat.' In 1923, when the member an asset, and certain cash on hand. was quoted as saying that the equity for Brant was Provincial Secretary, it Included in these reserves are mu-- in certain properties was included in muued five carloads of wheat to revy nlclpnl debentures valued at $993,.-- -- the reserves. for his services as Minister and mem-- 633.99. How much these should be | Mr. Cooke again interrupted to say: ber of this Legislature. But in 1932, it| | discounted no one knows, but T sug-- "Does not tke honorable member required thirty carloads to pay for the gest they would be very heavily dis-- know that an equity cannot be invest-- services of the present Minister, or an counted if a proper valuation were ed until the end of the sinking fund increase of 500 per cent. His 25 per' made. This far, including the se-- period, and is, therefore, rightly a sur-- o cent. reduction looks rather small in | | Curities just mentioned, we have as~ pjus in the meantime?" eomparison ." sets (after deducting deficit in in-- "The fact is," Mr. Elliott continued, i | surance and pension funds) of $37,.-- "that the $62,000,000 reserve is the Deals With Hydro Problems. l 061.746.75. difference between the value placed on The Liberal Party is a firm believer | "Then on page 154 we have assets: the assets of the Commission and the | + in Hydro, but believes it should be composed of balances due by mU--| liabilities." | handled in the interests of the public, nicipalities, rural loans, etc., of $4,-- He analyzed the electric radial items ; declared Mr. Elliott, in opening his 105,884.45; and on page 153, balances| included in .the assets. The GuelphI lengthy reference to the enterprise. He due to municipalities, $1,539,989.17; line was included at $510,870; the' gaid : leaving a balalzice otfh$2.5(&895.281; id e "Whenever any member on this side "Now we claim these items shou Sandwich, Winds 6 of the House mentions Hydro, we are | not be included in reserves as undoubt-- | at $5.878,044; P;';f ';;rg"d,t"tg'g'érsé:'t'fi apt to be at once accused of being edly much of this indebtedness is dut | apines at $534,143; and the Toronto opposed to public ownership; or some ; by municipalities unable to pay, but | to Port Credit line at $913.837. of the Government supporters, like we are willing to give the benefit of "Does any Essex member suggest the member for Hamilton, will say: this doubt, and we now have $39.627.-- |that--that valuation is too low?" ask-- "We have been "approached," as he 642.03, and this amount includes every |pgq »yyr, Elliott, of the Sandwich line. was, by the "big interests."' Well, he dollar of the assets of the Hydro-- |mhe member was quite critical of the must be more appreachable than we ectric Power Commission which CAD,. | caimed assets in connection with the on this side, for I can assure him that in any way, be classed as reserves. Less | port Credit--St. Catharines line. He we have not been 'approached' by any-- than forty millions instead of the | pointed out that $343.748 was included body; that we are firm believers in sixty--two and one--half millions claim-- 'm the amount, and 'that the balance public ownership, but that it should ; | ed. | was for construction material pur-- be ha'ndlcd in the interest of the pub. Declares Minister Evasive. | chased less the price received on re-- le, 'nh(fifi; any attempt to misrepre-- But the Troht of this book |Sale scnt conditions. | _ "But near | P _ mhig na it "Also, I would like to assure the| | (page 12) we find this item: Municipal | _ "" ?'leggsmagdr}%v%c?f J3 noy: Worm, _ ~ Sinking Fund equity in Hydro--Electric | one--hal J that sum foday, as the only members of this House of the source | Power Commission System, 523'103" asset of value in the whole $534,143 ! of the information which I will en-- . | 275.76, leaving only $19,524.366 77 . as 'entere a in the report or Tess inajons deavor to present this afternoon. All the actual reserves of the Hydro-- 'per cent.,." declared .the speaker the facts and figures which I may lm&t"c Power Commission of Ontanc:i. Liability . f present to this House today pertaining _ | Now a couple of weeks ago we asked | Liability Guaranteed. to the Hydro situation I have secured | the question as to whether these rc-- He claimed that, while the assets from the twenty--fourth annual report _ | serves were included in the sixty--two |of this line are of doubtful value, the of the Hydro--Electric Power Commis« | and one--half millions claimed. Either [fiabilities were real. "The Bank Of sion, and answers received on the floor "Yes" or "No" would have answored |Montreal had advanced $500,000, se-- of the House from the Chairman of the question, but the Minister talked |cured by the hypothecation of $1,200,-- the Hydro Commission. I think our several minutes trying to answer, and |poo of Hydro radial debentures guar-- friends opposite will consider this is I doubt if half a dozen members of the |anteeq by the Province of Ontario,". a reliable source. House or of the visitors in the gallery |hne said. t Iydro's Financial Position. were any wiser when he finished. But | «"phe 'Jiability' guaranteed by the, 44 at A 3 even if we do not deduct this amount, |Province--and the 'assets' a right of | sider the financial position of the serves instead of sixty--two millions. Or |rajlway that has never been, or never Hydro--Electric Power Commussion. We even if we add in the insurance and |will be, built,"" Mr. Elliott observed. note in the Speech from the 'I'h}'cne staff pension funds, which are not In a review of highway financing, that the reserves of the CommissiOn _ | properly reserves, we have less than (the Liberal financial critic declared amount to $62,500,000, and the Prc-- _ | forty--three millions. ; that the highway sinking fund was mier says over $65,000,000 now, but \__"Now the only way by which it can only imaginary. He declared that fail to find, in the latest report avail-- be made to appear that the reservss "nop one dollar of the Easoline lak able, anything near this amount than amount to $62,000,000 claimed, is t0 pnaqd ever been expended to construct can properly be classed as reserves. add in these items: 'a road in the Province of Ontario," The assets of the Commission may be "Employed to make repayments t9 |angq charged the Government with divided readily into two classes: the Province of Ontario under th? |misapplying the funds and using them "First, the undertaking of the Com-- terms of the Power Commission AC, |jn other services, against the regula-- mission. (This would include power $12,450,495.97; employed in retirement (tion jaid down in the Municipal Act. plants, transmission systems, inven-- of bonds issued or assumed by the fic asked the Government for an tories, office buildings, etc.) Commission and guaranteed by the oxplanation of the estimate for the "Second, the investments in secur-- Province of Ontario, $6,476,787.14; current year of $17,135,000 for in-- ities and the cash on hand. some of this may have been PAid terest on public debt, and claimed it "Now, looking over the twenty-- twenty years or more ago. was more than would be required to fourth annual report of the Commis-- 1 *"But note that these items are NOb | mppp present obligations. sion, we find (pages 148 and 150) a extended in the report as assets, al-- Attorney--General Price answered list of the undertakings and we notice though included in the reserves,. 'Thc ; tne effect that the différence Was a rather high value placed on some reason for this is very simple. 'The to take care of future borrowings. of these. As an example: Dominion auditors would not have certified to C c ams G t."> Power and Transmission Company, the accounts had these items been Coimnussion Government,. $21,489,434.83. included as assets. fAdVOCfltl?% a Com%dxssxc;nwform of overnment for a period of ten years, | Chats Falls Development. Mon. J. R. Cooke Replies. %nanned by 'member;es chosen forytheir| | _ "Chats Falls Development expendi-- Here Hon. J. R. Cooke, Hydro Chair-- ability rather than because of party | tures to date, $4,835,702.51. Now, I man, interjected: "Did I understand affiliations, S. C. Tweed . (Liberal, think, every member of the House will the honorable gentleman to say that Waterloo North), participating in the agree with me that even if full value _ there was not over $40,000,000 in the | Budget debate, stated that such a | was received for every dollar spent in Hydro reserves?" system would enable Ontario to over-- ; |\ this work, it is not worth that sum ; Mr. Elliott--Yes. come its present difficulties more | today, as at present scale of cost itl Mr. Cooke then attempted to read | rapidly. He scored the Govemment' would be replaced at least 25 per cent.| _ his answer, previously given to the | for having abandoned the debt--re--| below the cost when the work was| House, detailing the reserves, and | tirement plan, and again urged & | performpd, and surely replacement | :after drawing from Mr. Elliott the | charity tax upon meals costing more| cost is the limit of valuation. ! _ admission that he would include sink-- | than a certain amount, and an ex--| | "And so we go on down the "St-i ing fund earnings in the reserves, |tra tax on hard liquor. | Thunder Bay system, Georgian Bay| -- stated that his admission alone would Mr. Tweed also declared that the ; system, office buildings and inven--| [ bring the figure up to $52,000,000. | Government's estimate of the amount| tories. Now we come to the 135" |__"I am quite sure," said Mr. CoOke, | required for the year on account of item on page 150, which is the first, |"the honorable member has no de-- | exchange was not sufficient, being asset which may 'be included in re--| |sire to mislead the House, but he hAS | some $668,000 too low if the exchange | Province, $2,113,692.30. Then turn--| |not let go unanswered." _ point, Hon. W. H. Price, Attorney-- ing to page 152, the first item we | To this Mr. Elliott replied that he | General, interrupted to explain that have is insurance funds, $889,865.74, was using the Hydro report as the | thne 'Treasury had received the best but on the next page (page 153, item' | pasis of his argument, and if it Were | advice possible on this, and the ex-- | 5) we find a liability of $924,091.50. | wrong, surely he could not be blamed: | perts considered that the exchange showing a shortage in this fund of | yfr, Cooke replied: "They (the r¢-- | rate would go down. e over $35,000. The next item (page [ serves) are actually real and in 152) staff pensions fund, $2,451,938.84, _ | ponds," f but again on page 153 we find a lia~ | wrp ®lliott (referring to equities in-- bility to this fund of $2,513,803.20, a cluded)--They cannot be classed as a shortage of nearly $62,000. reserve unless they are assets.