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end to thls quibbllng. He said the action of the citizens was designed ttdefeat the will of the people. "I say. in the words of Whitney. that this bill is for the some pur- pose," said the Attorney General amid applause from the Liberals. "We are going to set aside certain quibblings that have been going on with regard to the powers of this Legislature." DIVISION IS CALLED Tho Attorney-General had a short but sharp hrush with Leopold Ma- caulay (Cons., South York) and tho latter hotly admonished the Min. ister not "to put words in m) mouth." Then almost immediately onsuml his argument with former Premier Henry. DISCUSSION OUT OF ORDER. IS CHALLENGE Roebuck Speech Deals With Cases Before Courts, Claims Conservative Legislature Supports AHor. ney-General by 58- fo-l3 Vote His sudden attack on tho At. torney-General brought, the dozing House suddenly awake and empty 'scats in the Chamber quickly filled l. tor the tilt which followed. I The Ottawa member referred. he said. to the legal action against the Ontario Hydro Commission brought by the Ottawa Valley and Beau. harnois Power Companies. No rule of the Legislature could apply to the situation. said Mr. Ellis in his appeal to the Speaker. so the House. he maintained. was forced to accept and adopt rules of the British and Canadian Houses of Commons. These l, rules declared that no debate could the permited upon matters still be- I fore the Courts, he said. Ash Written Ruling. of a Government Hydro measure was crushed hy an overwhelming, majority of Liberal members in thy Legislature yesterday. The skirmish was brief but fiery and ended with a full dress division which gave the Government a 58 to 13 decision against the Opposition. Arthur Ellis (Cons., Ottawa South) demanded that the Speaker rule Attorney-General Arthur Roe. burk out of order in his discussion of Hydro matters. which, the Com servative charged. dealt specifically with cases still before the Courts. Quotes Commons Rule. A spirited fight by the small Con. servative Opposition to halt passage g Speaker N. o. Hipel disagreed I with him. but only after a hurried 1 consultation with the Clerk of the 1 House on the regulations governing {such instances. After both the iSpeaker and the Clerk had studied the regulations tor some minutes, l-the Speaker rose to declare Mr. lRoebuck in order. Meantime. the Attorney-General's lengthy review ot Hydro matters had been halted, and he sent a hurry-up call to bring Acting Pre. mier Harry Nixon back into the Chamber. Mr. Nixon returned, and he, too. clashed with Opposition members. who finally appealed the Speaker's ruling to a decision ot the House. Mr. Ellis first demanded a written ruling from Mr. Hipel. declaring: "l venture to say this legislation will not stand up In the courts." When he first challenged Mr Roebuck's right to discuss the Hydro situation. the Attorney- General appealed to the Speaker with the statement: "May I say that I have never mentioned the the act." "Then, Mr. Speaker, If he is; not speaking to the bill, this dis- cusslon is out of order and irreleoq vant," retorted Mr. Ellis. (House' rules provido that a member mUStl speak to a hill, and Mr. Roebuck, technically. was stunting the bill' through second reading.) The hill in question would give Hydro the same power' to declare that no legal action could be started without. consent as all Crown properties enjoy. Appeals to Speaker. " wish to rise to a point of order. Mr. Speaker," said the OD tawa member. "It is provided in the rules'of the Legislature that where nothing is specifically pro- vided to cover a certain case. the rules of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom are adopted, I object. to the introduction and" discussion of a motion wholly out of order and which is contrary to the rules of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom and the House of Commons of Canada. "I submit that the matter before the House today consists primarily of two cases-one brought by the Ottawa Power Company against the Government and two actions; brought by the Beauharnois Poweri Company against the Hydro Com} mission. Both of these cases arti, still in the process of law and; therefore under the rules of that House of Commons. no discussion ls possible until the matter has been decided upon by the courts. "The Attorney-General/s discuss sion relates specifically to these cases. The object of this bill is to nullify any decision of the court. We must follow the rules of the House of Commons and there is a specific rule, Mr. Speaker, which says that such matters must be adjudicated by the courts before discussion can be permitted here. This House is entirely and com- pletely out of order. "Height of Absurdity." Mr. Roebuck: "May I say very re- spectfully, Mr. Speaker, that I have never mentioned the act." Mr. Ellis: "Mr. Speaker, if he has never mentioned the act, this dis- cussion is entirely out of order and irrelevem." The Clerk of the House was called" into a conference with the Speaker on the rules of the House. They discussed the points raised by Mr. Ellis for five minutes. Mean- time Mr. Roebuck had dispatched a page to find the Acting Premier. Mr. Nixon joined in the fray. "Do I understand that the member for Ottawa South suggests that this House cannot discuss Hydro? It is the height of absuruity," said he. Mr. Ellis: "Tho Attorney-General admits he is out of order. He should speak to the bill." . Mr. Nixon: "The bill in no way mentions any action in any court. It is quite in order to discuss Hy- dro matters of any kind." Tho Speaker rose to give his rul- ing. "in my opinion," said he, "the Attorney-General is quite in order. Surely the Government has the right to bring in a bill amending 14"pislntion alroady on the statute hooks. Although the rules may for- bid debate on a matter before the courts. they don't forbid discussion of an amendment to a statute." Doubts Ruling's Validity. Hon. George S. Henry, the Con. servative Leader in the House. got to his feet, apparently in an attempt to protest. "Aw, sit down," came shouts from the Liberal side. Mr. Nixon pointed out that the Speaker was still on the floor and that Mr. Henry could not at the same time stand to speak. - - A _ _ The Speaker raised his voice above the clamor. "I have given a ruling that the Attorney-General is quite in order," he declared firmly, "If you insist, I'll bring in a written ruling." _ _ - HMH Ellis: " request a written ruling. I venture to say this legis- Jartuisre The Speaker was still . on the When Mr. Ellis spoke, and agaifllolgz I)??? It voice, this time in censure no ttawa memh " awnrp fhot u odll.e,",ll'fy'r, Are you lation Will not stahd courts." aware that part in any Speaker is d9mandod. part In any conversation while the Speaker is still on the floor?" he demanded. Mr. Henry: "Mr, Speaker, I realize tho circumiitanees are not debatable. but we certainly must appeal your ruling." The whips left their seats to round up members in the corridors and five minutes later the House Rave its verdict-gg to 13 to Sustain the Sneaker's ruling. Sam Lawr. 01100 (C.C.F, Hamilton East), and Famuhar Oliver (U.P.O., South Grow. voted with the Government) Mr. Roebuck rose to continue. "t "as just stating some facts, which were evidently unpalatable to the gentlemen across the hall. His Majesty's Government, however, must he carried on, notwithstand- ing the very unlucky thirteen." "There is nothing noble about it) rammed the Attorney-General. " think it is Vary futile." "Nohle thirteen," - called""Mr. Henry. Stubbornly contesting every inch of ground, the Conservative Opposi- tion in the Legislature yesterday again attacked the Government's legislation to protect Ontario Hydro- Electric Power Commission from any actions of the Courts. LONG DEBATE SEEN Conservatives in Legislature Baffle Against Two New Measures Hon. T. B. McQuesten, Hydro Commissioner, introduced two new power bills. The first was an amendo ment to the Privy Council Appeals Act. making it unnecessary tor Hydro to post security for appeals to the Privy Council. A feature of this bill, likely to cause protracted debate, is the retroactive clause which provides for the return of the. S127.000 posted in the. Ottawa Valley litigation. The second bill declares no Court action may be brought against Hydro without the consent of the Attorney-General. Both are ancillary 2 the bill introduced on opening ay. POWER BILLS ARE OPPOSED At the request of Mr. Henry, the Minister briefly explained the pur- poses. of the two bills. Difficulties had arisen from what might be de- scribed as "inconsistencies of the courts," he said. Judgments in force for many years might suddenly change and the bill merely reiterat- ed what had been the law for twenty years' with regard to Hydro. "Surely this does not mean that Hydro is short of funds?" asked Hon. George S. Henry, Conservative House Leader. "Like most other business con- cems we are quite able to use our money for legitimate purposes," sm_i_lin_gly answerer) Mr. Ncauepttsn. "Isn'Can appeal to the' Privy Council a legitimate purpose?" shot back Mr. Henry. - - "I would can it a wasteful pur- pose," replied Mr. McQuetten. - that a pembet cannot err seats to the corridors t' the House 13 to sustain up in the nnot take _While the