kingston vi chroniciie vol x nec rege nec populo sed utroque saturday may 23 1829 no xi- vii i englixj r i f ft house of lords catholic relief bill the duke of wellington moved the order ef the day for the second reading of the bill to relieve roman catholics from certain civ il disabilities the order having been read the duke of wellington said it it is now toy duty to move your lordthlps to read this bill a second time and to explain to your lordships the grounds on which 1 recom mend this measure to your attention i may be under the necessity j requesting a lar ger portion of your time and attention upon this occasion than i have hitherto been in the habit of doing but i assure you my lords that it is not my intention to take up aniosuntof your time with respect to my self or my own conduct in this transaction ny further than to express my regret that i should differ in opinion n this subject from o rrnny of those for whom i entertain the nighest respect and regard however my lords i must say that i have considered the fcart which i have taken upon this subject as the performance of a public duty absolutely mcumbent upon me and i must say that no private regard no respect for the opinion of rjy noble lord would have induced me to dpprf fii trtn course which i have consid ered ii my duly to ulopi 1 must say like wise this that comparing my own opinion with that of other upon this subject i have during the period 1 have been in office hd opportunities of forming a judgment upon this subject which others have not had and they will admit that i should not have given the opinion i have given if 1 was not intimately and hrmlv persuaded that that opinion was a just one my l rds the point which i gliall first bring under your consideration is the state of ii el nd i know tht by some it has been consideied that the state of lie- land has nothing to do with this question thaiit is a subject which ought to be left en tirely out of our consideration my lords iber tell us that ireland lias been disturbed iovthe last 30 years that it is a disturbance we have been accustomed to and that it does not at all alter the circumstances of the case as they have hitherto appeared to the house my lords it is perfectly true that ireland has been disturbed during the long period i have stated but within the last year or two politic 1 circumstances hjve in no small de gree oc asioned that agitation besides that my lords i must say although i have no positive legal proof of the fact that i hive every reason to believe that there has been a considerable organization of the people for the purposes of mischief hear hear my lords this organization is it appears to me to be proved not only by the declarations of those who formed and who arranged it but likewise by the effects which it has produced in the election of churchwardens through ut the country in the circumstances attending the election for the county of clare in the circumstance that preceded and followed that election of a gentleman who went at the head of a body of men to the north of ire land in th- simultaneous proceedings of va rious bodies of men in the south of ireland in ttmplemnre killenaule cahir clonoel and other place in the proceedings of anoth er gentleman of another county and in ihe lecal of this gentleman from the north of ircjg iy uip uul estfrhw in all these circumstances it is quite obvious to me that there was an organization and direction of some superior authority this organization lias certainly produced a state of society in ireland which we have not heitof re witnessed and an aggravation of all the evils which before afflicted that un fortunate country ivly lords late in the year a considerable town was attacked in the middle of the night by a body of peo ple who i3mc fiornthe neighbouring moun tains the tovn oi orl they attacked it with arms andwere driven from it with arms by the inhabitants of the town this is a 6tate of things which 1 feel your lordships will admit ough not to exist in a civilized countiy later in the year still a similar event occurred in charleville and in the course of last autumn the roman catholic association deliberated upon the propriety of adopting and the means of adopting the measutc of ceasmgall dealings between ro man catholic and protestnts is it possi ble to believe that supposing these dealings had ceased that supposing this measure had been carried into execution as i firmly be lieve it was in the power of those who deli berated upon it to carry it into execution is it possible to believe that those who could cease these dealings would not likewise h ve ceased to carry into execution the contracts into which they had entered will any nan say that people in thissituation are not vers ing towards that state in which it would be impossible to expect from then that they would be able to perform the duties of jury- men or to administer justice between man and mall for the protection of the lives and properties of his majestys subjects my lords this is the state of society to which i wished to draw your attention and for which it is necessary iht pari foment should provide iedy but before i proceed to consider a rem an immediate civil war in the country but not otiy was that the case my lords but i confes that i had the strongest objection to viher triumph to the roman catholic osociation then we are told why dont you carry the law into execution why my lords in all that i have stated hitherto there was no resistance to the law the magis trates were terrified and did nothing the troops did not happen immediately to be up on the spot and there was no resistance there were no troops except in the case of the procession that went to the north of ire land i believe there was no instance of any opposition to the kings troops and there was no instance in which the law could be carried into execution when we hear noble lords reproaching the government for not carrying ino execution the law in ireland as it was carried into execution in england the ob servation shows that they dont understand the state ot things in ireland the truth of the matter is that in england when the law was carried into execution in the year 1819 a large body of persons assembled for an ille gal purpose they resisted the order of the magistrates to disperse and having resisted that order the magistrates ordered the troops to disperse them but in this case there were no circumstances of the same kind no order was given to disperse no order could be giv en to disperse because no magistrates were present and if they had been present there were no troops to disperse the truth is ihe statu of iiecy woavwdi m rendered thene events possible every hour and it was im possible the magistrates could be at everv spot and at all times to put an end to these outrages which really are a disgrace to the country in which they exist but my lords neither the form nor the means in the posses sion of government enabled government to putan end to these things it was necessary therefore to come to parliament now let us see what chance there was for providing a remedy for this state of thing by coming to parliament my lords we all recollect perfectly well that the opinion of the majori ty in another place is thtthe remedy for this state of things in ireland is a repeal of the disibibties affecting his majestys ro man catholic subjects cheers we might have gone and asked parliament to enable us to put down the roman catholic association bu what chance had we of pre vailing upon parliament to pas such a bill without being prepared to come forward and state that we were ready to consider the whole condition of ireland hear hear with a view to apply a remedy to that which parliament had stated to be the cause ot the disease suppose that parliament had giver- us the bill to put down the roman catholic association would such a law as that which has passed this year be a remedy for the state of things which have already described to yonrlordshipsasexistingin ireland would it do any one thing towards putting an end to the organization which i have stated to your lordships exists towards pufing down i the mischiefs which are the consequences of j that organization towards giving you the j means of gelling the better of the state of things existing io ireland without some further measure to be adopted but my lords it is said if that will not do let ua proceed to blows what is meant by pro ceeding to blows is coming to civil war now i believe that every government must be prepared to cany into execution the laws of the country by the force placed at its dis- vv bv the mili trv force in case that should be necessary and above ail things to oppose resistance to the law in case the disaffected or the illdisposed are in lined to resist the authority or sentence of the law but as i have already stated to your lord ships there was no resistance of the law hear hear nay more i will go further and will say that i am positively certain that this state of things existing in ireland for the last vear and a half bordering upon civ- il war being attended by nearly all the e- vils of civil war might have continued a considerable time longer to the great injury disgrace of the country those who mana- j ged the state if they would have taken care to prevent that resistance which might have ended in that state of things being put down they know as well as i do they are not strong enough to wrestle with the kings government backed by the law they know perfectly well they would have been the first victims of that resistance but knowing that and knowing as i do that they are sen sible able men and perfectly aware of the materials upon which they have to work i have not the smallest doubt that the stte ol things which lhave stated to your lordships would have continued and that you would never have had an opportunity of putting it down in the manner some noble lords im- i agined but my lords even if i had been certain of such means of putting it down i should have co isidered it my duty to avoid those means lam one of those who have probably passed u longer pern d of my life engaged i war than most men and princi pally 1 may say in civil warand i must siv this that if i could avoid by any sacrifice whatever even one month of civil war in the country to which i was attached 1 would sarifice my life in order to do it cheers 1 say that there is nothing which destroys property and prosperity and denoializes character to the degree that civil war does country sntl the risks which might have at tended anv accident at the election which might have occasion d the shedding of blood such a disaster must have been productive of have put r e t had not made the option of bringing forward the measures for bich i my 1 mb tfrgomi ble but let us look a little further at this if civil wir is so bad when it is occasioned by resistance to the government if it is so bad in the case i have stated and so much to be avoided how much more is it to be a- voided when we are to arm the people in or der that we may onquer one part of them by exciting the other part against them hear hear my lords i am sure there i- not a man who hears me whose blood would not shudder at such a proposition if it were made to him and yet that is the resource to which we should be pushed at last by con tinuing the course we have been adopt ing for the last few years however i entreat your lordships not to look at it in this view but let us revert a little to what passed on a former similar occasion my lords 1 am old enough to remember the rebellion in 1798 i was not employed in ireland at the time i was employed in nother part of the dominions but my lords if i am not mistaken the parliament of ireland at that time walked up to my lord lieutenant with a unanimous address beseeching his excellency to take every means to put down that unnatural rebellion and promising their full support in order to carry that measure into execution- the lord lieutenant did take those measures and did succeed in putting down that rebel lion wtll m lord what happened in the very next session the government proposed to p an end to the parliament ard to form a legislative union between the two kingmms for the principal purpose of prnposi this very measure cheers and in pnil of fact the very first measure that was proposed after this legislative union after those successful endeavours to put do vn ibis rebellion was the very me sure with w i am now about to trouble your lordshp 1s it possible noble lords can that supposing there was such a contest as that ws hav anticipated is it possible noble lords can believe that such a contes could e carried on much less insisted on by one house uf parliament if not bdh i am certaio my lords that when you look at the division of opinion which prevail in both mouses of parliament when you look at the ilivision which prevails in every fam ily if his kingdom and of ireland tin eve ry family 1 say from the most eminent in station down to the lowest in this country whet v look at the division of opinion that prevails among the pjoestant of ire land ou this subject i am convinced you will see that there would be a vast differ ent e i a contest carried on uow and that which was carried on on former occasions my ld3 1 beg you will recollect thaiup- 0 a re ent occasion there was a protestant declaration of the sentiments of ireland as 1 said before the parliament of ireland in the yeir 1798 with the exception of one or twogtotleien were unanimous and on a recent ecasioniltere were seven marquises 27 earls a vast number of peers of other ranks and not less than 2000 protestant gentlemen f property ii the country who signed the declorati n stating the absolute necessity of making these concessions un der those circumstances it is that this con test has been carried on circu instances to tally different fvtti those which existed at the period i before alluded to bnt is it pos sible t believe that parliament would al low such a contest to go on is il possible to believe that parliament having this state of thing before them that this house see ing what the opinion o- the other house of parliament is seeing what the opinion of the large number t protestants in irelind isseeing what the opinion of nearly everv statesman for the last forty years has been on this question would continue to oppose itself to measure brought forward tor its settlement it appears to me absolutely im possible that we could have gone on longer without increasing difficulties being brought on the country but it is very desirable that we should look a little to what benefit is to be derived to any one class in the state by continuing the disabilities and only tak ing those coercive measures which will have all the evils i have stated we are told that the benefit will be to preserve the prin ciples of the constitution of 1688 that the acts of i6s8 permanently excluded romau catholics from parliament and that they being permanently excluded from parlia ment it is necessary to have recourse to all those evils in order to keep up that perma nent exclusion now i wish very rruch that noble lords would take upon them selves the trouble i have taken to see how the matter stands as to the permanent exclu sion if roman catholic from parliament my lords in the bill of rights there are some things permanently enacted which i sincerely hope will be permanent those are the liberties of the people hear hear the securky for the protestantism of the per son on the throne of these kingdoms and that he shall not be married to a paptist then there is an oath of allegiance and su premacy to be taken by all those of whom thai oth oi allegiance is required which is alo peimsnet but there is no declaration igmnst transubsiantiation there is also an oath of allegiance different from that which is to be taken by a member of parliament i beg yur lordships will observe that al though this oath of allegiance was declared permanent it was altered in the reign of william and mary this shows what that permanent act was then with respect to the oaths to be taken by members of parlia ment 1 beg your lordships to observe that these ortthsthe dei laration against transub- stanti tion and the imprecation of the mass are not m the act of william iii they are in the act of 30th charles ii during the reign of charles it there were certain oths iiuoseofistijpn ditsenters of the church of esugui dby the 13th and 14th charles ii and to exclude roman catholics by the 25h charles lis and 30th charles ii at the period of he revolution when king w illiam came he thought proper to extend the htsis of his government and he repealed ihe oaths affecting the dissenters from the church of engl ud imposed by the 13th and 14th charles ii aodlikewse that per manent part of the oath of supremacy which dissenters from the church of england could not take- that is the history of the alteration of these oaths by william iii from the time of charles ii bnt my lords the remainder of the oath could be taken by dissenters but could not be taken by rom an catholics the danger with respect to roman catholics had originated in the time of charles ii and these oaths still existed in the time of william iii but the oath was altered because one of the great principles of the revolution was to limit the exclusion from the benefits f the constitution as far as it was possible therefore we have the prin ciple of the revolution as well as the princi ple i before stated which consisted of the bill of rights and liberties uf the subject now the noble lords state that what they call the principles f 1688 that is to say these oaths excluding roman catholics are equally peroanent with the bill of rights by which the protestantism of the crown is secured if they will dome the favor to 1 ok at the words of the act they will see that the difference is just the difference be tween that which is permanent and that which is not penmuent the act says that hie rioudt iitlnu of tlu crown ivm 1wt for ever that these liberties are secured lor ever but as lor these oaths they ai enact ed in exclusive word and there is it one word of a contrary import well tien my lords what follows the next ct ve have is the act of union with scotland a d what does that act say why that the mths to be taken by the members of parliament are to be aid down by the 1st william mtld ma ry till parliament shall otherwise direct this is what is rill il a permanent act of parliament permanent provision fr all future periods to exclude catholics from seats in prrliament my lords i beg to ob serve that if he act whih exclude roman catholics from seats in parliament l perma nent there is another clause i believe the 10th of cap 8 william and mary which requires officers of the army and navy to take these very oaths previous to their aceptance of their commissions now if the act made in the first year of willi mand mary which excludes roman catholics from parli ment is permanent i should like to ak noble birds why ihe clause in that act is not equal ly permanent one oftheseacts was mere ly temporary and the other as appeared by the change which bad takn plce was not permanent neithei act therefore was bii digat the present day the parliament of queen anne at the ti e of the union recognized the right of presbyteria sto seats in parliament and consequently the act passed ill the reign of william and mary was not permanent and i will appeal to the noble loids whether the act passed in 1s17 exempting catholic officers in nivy of certain rank from trust will tend so much to the peace and tranquility of the country having thus my lords shown the necessity for some change in the system of government i shall i ow proceed briefly to state the general pro visions of the bill the bill in itself is ve ry specific and comprehensive it concedes to the roman catholics every office of the st te uccnnected with the administration of the affairs of the church hear hear hear it also concedes to them seats in par liament and many other offices and situa- linns from wfilh they had formerly been de barred this measure is much more liberal and complete than any which has yet been proposed and i will tell your l rdships why i have now recommenced such concessions to tliis country i must say that on the point lso there ae great objections 1 do not see bow it woud be possible nor do i think it necessary to make the attempt at present to watch over all such correspondence it turns no doubt solely on spiritual affairs but if the popes autho ity is recognized in any way and particularly as to making laws for the church of ireland then that security goes again it would be found quite impos sible to prevent it and hy racing the at tempt i am convinced that weshocrid be do ing more harm ro the constitution and the established church than by allowing the catholics to carry on their correspondence as they had hitherto done that correspon dence is avowed by them as relating to reli gious matters but if this indulgence is abus- on considering the subject maturely icould not fail seeing the consequences resulting ed and the conduct of any of the parties frm the imperfect acts of 1732 and 1793 j should for the relief uf the catholics i have seen that when there was any restrictions in the concessions the only effect it had was to en courage them to rise in their demandsand to arm thern with fresh power to enforce these demands i have therefore thought it my duty to make the concession as 1 age as any reasonable man could expect to leave noth ing behind which coud forma pretence for fresh demands or for disturbing the peace or tranquility of the country the conced ing to them the right of sitting in parliament i do not conceive can be objected to on any good grounds of policy or reason it cannot in any manner influence any question that render the interference of govern ment necessary i shall come down to the house and claim additional potver to ensure a result to that interference which shll be satisfactory to the house and- the country hear another part of the bill relates to the jesuits an act was passed against that body in 1791 and which was probably thought at the time as secure as any law could be on the subject 1 do net mean to impute anv blame to the noble lord who framed that bill but every one knows that it has betn with ut effect and that not only in ireland but in this country large estab lishments have sprung up notwithstanding the provisions of that bill the mcsire re- befto parliynet to the prejudice of sorted to in this bill i trust will be effect li the church of england it iui rnmw list tic rcxuj- tij iu sllppi esilig ulsltcl a cilufc -lilwuw- the act of the 30th ofj pressing hard on any individual no one my lords would more reluctantly than my self impose any hardships on any individu als but i have not the smallest doubt that if this clause in the bill is not carried we shall soon see this country and ireland iuundnted by jemiits sent from ajl the other pars of europe and establishing themselves in the british dminions i admit that noble lords when i propose this measure have leered thai when charles ii and the other act at the period of the revolution were passed they were not enacted for the security of ihe church il was not the church but the state which was in danger for what were these laws enacted was it not because the sovereign was a concealed papist and his successor an avowed one and because on that account the safety of the state was threatened but besides this danger was to be apprehended the right to ask what reason i have for he- then not from the catholics but the dis senters any one who has attended to the history of ihoe times must see that il was not the catholics but the disertes that were dreaded and that ihe privileges grant ed to the dissen ers contributed to the rev olution- i hardly think it can be necessary for me to show that no danger can be appre hended from admitting catholics to se its in parliament in the time of charles ii thev had seats in both houses by the proposed lieving it good i answer that not only the example other slates of europe and the result of the measures they have adopted but even the state of great britain ittlf warrants me in urging the expediency of the measure if i am notmistaken the deferen ces between th episcnp 1 church ol eng land and the kirk of scotland at a former period were as injurious to the wellbeing and security of the cons itution as the p res- sent stte of ireland abroad we know lawtheyare not required to take the oath of there are no such distim ticiis and dis bli- supremacy but an oath of allegiance has ities te i ivil privileges of protestants and been framed in which a great part of the catholics hre the same in the bestregulated oath of supremacy has been retained nd which will answer sufficiently th t particu lar purpose so far then this act is much better than that of charles ii besides this for the last 40 years the house of stuart has been considered extinct and in the opinion catholic countries- and i urn not aware that any danger has arisen from such a state of things in order in show the effect of such a divided interest in this country in former times ii is only necessary to refer to tl e sate of society in scotland previous to the union and i cannot give your loidships a better idea of it than by reading a petition i uerly prescribed has nt done away with the clause io chapter 8 if therefore the principles of exclusion established in 1688 were found not to be permanent and if do acts were passed either at the union with scotland or ireland to prevent further chan ges i will ask noble lords on what princi ple of justice or sound reason any objection can hd raised to the measure proposed tni even supposing that were not the case and that no alteration in the laws had taken place are we not at liberty on the ground of expediency to repeal these laws altoge ther in order to relieve the country from the inconvenience under which it has so long laboured are we not at liberty tore- vise the state of the representation in ire land as soon as it is perceived that the peo ple at the elections are entirely under the influence of the priests and the arrange ment which had been made in former years is found totally insufficient for the due ad ministration of the state the great ques tion your l rdships have to decide is not whether some law existed prohibiting all alteration but whether they should as the guardians of the public welfare relieve the country from the improper influence exer cised over such a portion of his majestys subjects bythecatholicpriesthood i have already my lords stated how this exclu sive systeoi tended to embarrass ihe mea sures of government and to excite divisions or disturbances in every part of the country and indeed in every family but i have not yet called your lordships attention to the d ngers to which the church itself is expos ed in consequence of this disunion the church of irelmd is in a peculiar situation the clergy of the established church there have but the mirority under thejr charge at the same tinie i must say that a more ex emplary a more pious and leaned set of men do not exist hear hear her that church certainly enjoys the aflectiong of those whom they have been sent o instruct to the same degree with their bethren in england and the protestants of noth coun tries would shed the last drop of their blood in defence of the doctrines of ihg church but if the case comes to that powt if they were obliged to have recourse t violence was not that likelj to afteel the interests of thechurch hear and i wijiask whe ther it were more likely that suci violence might be prevented by an united govern ment an united parliament and an united people or by a disunited gove a disunited parliament or a disused peo ple hear bear no man who attendsto the subject can fail to see the situation of ireland and mus i of a great number and that opinion had for a long tii e been gaining ground the time for the repeal of the lw had at last arrived which has this day been put into my hands it had been appointed for a specific purpose piesented mure than 100 years ago to the the army and 1 and it culd not be necessary when the b- si ottish parliament against granting toler- he oaths for- ject for which it was appointed had teased ation to episcopacy in thai country this to exist on ano her subject mv lord i peliion is almost word for wora a copy of wish to sav a few words many in this house many lhal have been presented to this as well as throughout the country and i house against popery that petition pro- confess i was of that opinion mvself have phesied nothingbut ruin to the kirk of scot- contended that the state ought to have some land and the constitution of that country security for the protestant church against and 1 have little doubt that when this bill the encroachment of the catholic clergy i has passed the dangers anticipated from it but i confess on examining the question will be found as groundless as those which the foundation on which the security of the tioners nrayed ttut parliament would not church and state rests i could find no secu- grant tolertin to episcopacy in scotland rity which would be satisfactory the bill in the then state of that church such a i think my lords as it stands affords more toleration would be unavailing and ruinous securitv than any that could have been re- it would sap the foundations of the church ceived either from the catholic clergy or a and constitution it would overwhelm the foreign potentate in order to explain this i laws established in the country and need- it may be necessary to refer to other stales i lessly destroy the peace and tranquility of and i beg your lordships attention to that the nation it would alienate from his ma- subiect for a few moments the king of jesty the hearts of his best subjects weaken prussia exercises a power over the roman the loyalty of the people 6pen a door to catholics in his dominion under different concordats entered into with the pope the house of austria exercises a similar power and on the same grounds the ter ritories on the left bank of the rhine are likewise bound by a concordat with the pope agreed to in the time of bonaparte and those of the right bank by concordats entered into by their respective sovereigns but in the event of a concordat being en tered into between ihe british government and the pope that would be admitting the pope to have some power in this country and that i say is a point which we never will yield hear no foreign be he who he may no prince or potentate has a right to interfere between his majesty and his subjects and from all such transactions i trust every government in this country will steer clear hear hear even the veto i should n t consider aysecunty and that could not be assumed by the sovereign without in some way or other impairing his authority and dignity and admitting the pope to have some right to interfere in the internal affairs of the state suppose the king to have the nomination of the bish ops he must in nominating a ish op give him a diocese and i should like to know in what partot ireland such a diocese is io be found that could be conferred by the sove reign on a catholic bishop consistent with his oath the king has sworn to preserve the protestant church toe bishops and lkr- gy and every thing belonging to them now how coud he appoint a lthoiie bish op without giving him a diocese and it he did would not the church of england rise against such an attempt on the part of his majesty with regard to some security a- gainst correspondence with rme and the necessity f supervising allcom-nu- icli- prelacy and popery and bring ihe nation back to that state of misery and pollution from which it had so lately emerged the petitioners therefore humbly entreated par liament to uphold the laws then existing refuse all legal toleration because they were persuaded that if toleration were granted it would lead to the establishment of popery and produce the most dredfut effects on the institutions of the chinch and state hear hear now 1 sincerely hope continued th noble duke that as the pro phesy made respecting episcopacy in that country has not been fulfilled the prophesy contained in some f the petitions against concessions to catholics will in the result be found equally incorrect and without foundation but there were still other grounds for granting emancipation there co id he no doubt that after the roman ca tholics had been put on the same fooling with their protestant fellow subjects fter ihe candid and liberal measure proposed for them they would have io separate inter ests and could therefore have no grounds for confirming the suspicions which were en- terlainedagaiiist thern they couldexecuto nothing i this or the other house of parlia- enl parliament would look to them with the sime eye with which it has watched scotland and i have no doubt that in a short time the same and kindly feeling would prevail there if however we should be disappointed ol the hopes ol tranquility and attempts to create dissatisfaction sh- uld be renewed i will w ithoul delay come down to lay the stte of affairs before parliament in order to enable the government to meet the danger and 1 am o nfident my lords that on such an occasion as well s n this it shall mtet your lordships suppoit and confidence having my lords exoaned t or injury the groups for the measureihe state of f