rkt r i r- kingston chronicle nec rege nec populo sed utitoque vlx saturday september 19 1829 3toxii poetry i ct li song breath do mure ibe notes of sadness give to pleasure all thystriogs gentle harp the song of gladness oer our souls its magic flings wheres the breast with sorrow pining bring the pilgrim to our shrine where the spirits light is shining theres the mecca most divine then breathe no more the notes of sadness give to pleasure all thy strings gentle harp thy song of gladness oer our sours its magic flings here no brow by care oersbaded comes to chill our hearts with sighs here no wreath its flowers have faded meets the glance of sparkling eyes seek ve love the bosoms treasure here be plumes his keenest dart when ye list the witching measure then love plies his potent art oh hreatbe no more the notes of sadness give to pleasure all thy strings gentle harp thy song of gladness oer our souls its magic flings canada committee rcpokt continued from our last examination of the rev johx lee p d you are one of ihe ministers of ed inburgh t i am- have any communications taken place between yourself and the government respecting the state f the presbyterian pltfrgjf in ho two provinces of cana da as convener of a committee of the general assembly i was instruct ed to apply to government in the form of a memorial soliciting aid towards the suppoit of the presbyterian ministers in communion with the church of scot land resident in upper and lower ca nada when was that application winjet the application was made about twelve months ago about the beginning of june last year have the goodness to describe the nature of the application i will deli ver in a copy of the memorial which was presented to the colonial office the witness delivered the same which was read as follows to the right honourable his ma jestys principal secretary of state tor colonial affairs the memorial of committee of the general assembly of the church of scotland humbly showeth that your memorialists have been appointed by the last general assem bly to inquire into the condition of the presbyterian cleigy and people in the british provinces in north america and have been instructed to support by all proper means the applications made 10 government for their relief 3w4 swljicfffcwly m asnbtftto every fa vourable opportunity for promoting the object of the overtures transmitted from various synods of this national church recommending to the general assem bly to use their best endeavours for ob taining suitable maintenance for regu larly ordained presbyterian ministors in the british american colonics and assistance towards the creation ami en dowment of places of worship for the accommodation of the numerous settlers in those colonies professing to be in communion with the church of scot land the attention of the memorialists has of late been specially called to the condition of the adherents of the church of scotland resident in upper canada on whose behalf claims have been put forth for a share in the proceeds of the lands reserved by the 31st of his late majesty c 3l for the support of the protestant elegy the general as sembly in 1823 directed this commit tee to support the application by all means in their power and it is in obe dience to the command of the last ge neral assembly that this memorial is presented your memorialists cannot conceive it to admit of a question tliat under the designation of a protestant clergy it must have been the intention of the legislature to include not only the clergy deriving their orders from bi shops of the church of england but all such as might at any time be regular ly ordained by picsbyteries ot this na tional church the law of the land has applied the same general designation of protestant indiscriminately to the mem bers of either of the two established churches within the united kingdom in the ratification of the treaty of uni on land in the act of the parliament of england intituled an act for secur ing the church of england by law esta- blished the expression protestant rc- ligionj is used at least as frequently in combination with presbyterian church government as with the government of the church of england and your me morialists are not aware of any law which can exclude the members of the established church of scotland from the same privileges which are claimed and enjoyed by the members of the church of england resident m a colony which is confessedly british the memorialists trust that it is necessary for them to advert to the great proportion of the settlers in cana da who ate attached to the doctrine government and worship of the church of scotland in the extensive range of the country known by the name of glengarry inhabited chiefly by a race of highlanders there are three pres byterian minisiers whom preach es both in gielic and english and one ofwhom has about 500 communicants in his congregation since the termi nation of the war many thousands of per sons have emigrated from the west of scotland and have formed congrega tions particularly in the county of carlton including the settlements of lanark penh and richmond three years ago this county the population of which was about 6000 was supplied with religious instruction by four pres- byterinu ministers two roman catholic priests one episcopalian minister and one methodist preacher from the uni ted slates the people of that dis trict and of several olicrs have mam- no disposition to conform the establish ed church of england so that where ver they have no access to the instruc tions of ministers ordained in the church of scotland they are in danger of im bibing political disaffection as well as extravagant and irrational views of r ligion from some of the unauthorized teachers who are said to intrude in con siderable numbers from various parts of the uniiej states your memorialists have further to slate th it as the want of a fixed and permanent provision for clergymen or dained to such stations has hitherto re strained thepresbyierians of this church from complying with requests which have often been preferred to them and as the settlers who have been disap pointed of ministers ordained by this national church have been tempted to throw themselves into the arms of sec taries of various denominations some of them of undefined creeds it appears to be well worthy of the consideration of government how far it might con duce to tbe advancement of religion and morality jnd to the preset vation of the loyalty and patriotism of the presbyte rian colonists and their attachment jo the british constitution io extend to them lie means of enjoying the benefit of religious ordinances oj ihesame toot ing with their brethren in communion with the sister establishment with whom they wish to avoid all collision of interests and to whom they do not yiefj in regard tor the honour stability festcdadecidnd preference for the forms i and prosperity ot the empire of worship practised ttt the church of scotland your memorialists have reason to helicvc that the congregations in up per canada in ommuuon with the church of scotland have been repre sented to government as beinj few in number when compared with the con gregations which avail themselves of the ministration of clergymen of the church of england it cannct howe- ever he denied that there are in up per canada at least 30 presbyterian congregations professing to adhere to the doctrine and worship of the church of scotland and that the existing places of worship frequented by presbyterians are numerouly ad respectably attend ed though the presbyterian ministers in the province do not exceed 20 in number and though only live of this number have been ordained by presby terians of ihe established church of scotland it is ascertained thai a great majority of the people are zealously at tached by principle and education to this established church lut the set tlers being in general poor do not pos sess the means of affording an adequate provision o ministers and as the pres byteries of the church of scotland are not entitled to confer ordination on any io whom satisfactory security for a com petent living has not been given many of the settlers who before their depar ture from scotland were in communion with the church are compelled o con nect themselves with some of ihe secta ries whose forms resemble those of the church of scotland although their reli gious principles may not be strictly con formable to our standards the church of england has not laboured under the same dsadvantage funds have been granted by government for the ere tion of churches which are in many in stances if no in all supplied by mis sionaries from the society for the pro- pogation of the gospel in foreign parts within the last six years as appears from the reports of that society for the year is21 the number of commu nicants at 17 stations in upper canada served by 17 missionaries whose sala ries amounted to 3345 dd not ex ceed 118 as a contrast with this ad- in name of the committee of the general assembly john lee convener edinburgh june 8th 1827 what answer did you receive to that memorial the only answer i receiv ed from the government was this letter which i will deliver in the witness delivered in the same which was read as follows downing street 4th july 13 27 sir i am directed by viscount goderich to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 3th ultimo urging the claims of the piesbyterian ministers to participate in the lands reserved for the supportof a protestant clergy in cana da and i am to request that you will communicate to the committee of the general assembly of the church of scotland that instructions were convey ed by lord bathurst to the lieutenant governor of upper canad tn october last authorizing the appropriation of 730 per annum from the proceeds of the sale of crown lands vo the canada with regard to the form of whose ap pointment the assembly is not inform ed ofall those descriptions what pro portion of presbyterian ministers con nected with the scotch church do you believe to exist in the canadas the precise number i cannot state without referring to documents which i have not sufficiently arranged not having expect ed to be examined by this committee but in upper canada as 1 have already stated 1 personally know of six in lower canada i think the number is nearly the same have you any information which has led you to for many opinion as to the probable number of presbyterians con nected with the scotch church in the two provinces of canada i could not condescend on any thing like an exact statement of the lumbers the re turns fiom the different districts and townships all state that the numbers are very great and that the proportion of persons attached to the doctrine and and worship of the church of scotlond is much greater than of those who are of aoy other communion do you speak of upper or lower cana da 1 am speaking of upper canada at j present what stipends have been awarded to the ministers whom you describe as ha ving gooo out to cauada i have no di rect method of knowing exactly what is the salary of anyone of them none of them have been sent from the general assem bly uaqi by presbyt the excepti do you know what stipend would un der the circumstances of canada be thought sufficient for a presbyterian minis ter of a congregation ofa moderate bus i understand about 00 a year to be what is thought an adequate maintenance there and tbat 1 kuow is possessed by ooe or two do any of them derive a portion oftueir emoluments fiom subscription or other unds provided io great britain i aro not aware of any who do so with the excep tion of such as are sent out by a society in glasgow for promoting the religious inter ests of settlers in british north america if any presbyterian miuisters froni the north of irtland have established them selves io canada would that fact be kaowu to your body i it could not be kaown otherwise than through the communica tions that the commitee of the assembly have received we know that there have been instances of such persons going tfiere but they are not at all recognized bv the church of scotland ha any portion of tbo money referred to in the answer to your memorial been re ceived i do not know j have uuder- stood hat it is only for a limited period have any communications taken place for some qualification as the question has been put to me it is my duty to state that many of the ministers connected with the secession both io upper and lower ca nada have signified their willingness to pro fess strict adherence to tho doctrine am discipline and worship of the church of scotland have you any means of knowingwhe- ther the presbyterians of american origin lu canada would also join the same con gregations with ihe scotch presbyterians i have ne means of knowing that was that declaration of their willingness to adopt your confession of faith made by the clergymen in canada made since ihe discussion had arisen with respect to this claim so far as i know it is only since this claim has been agitated is it your opinion that all protestant dis senters of every description whether pres byterians or not have a right to share iu that fund i hope i shall be forgiven for ftatiugthat we do not consider ourselves as protestant dissenters the church of scotlaud is an established church do you conceive that protestant dissen ters will be entitled to a share of that fund lam not capableof speaking upon ihatsub- ject von mean that you consider your claim h as good as that of the church of en gland tbat is our opinion i may per- laps he allowed to state why i seem to li mit the words protestant clergy fur ther than perhaps might have been expect ed it is for this reason the acts both of ihe parliament of england and of scot land parsed at the time of the ililon wheo they speak of the protestant religi- ou certainly refer cither to the church of f but they have beon ordained england as by law established or to the 1 ui i u i-j- with cliurcnor iuciliuul itlo iivormrioiit oii tvtenansturoukhout bcyuauu si c wi m which was then secured and ratified and piionofone 1 cannot venture to say that the construc tion of this act would entitle one to go fur ther now amany of the protectant dis senters do not by any means hold the doc trines or conform to the worship or submit to the discipline which is established in the church of scotland i do not perceive bow they could claim under those acts sst i i i i between your body ana the corporation company which lord godencli lh the clergy reserves in will evince the favourable disposition of canada no i have not been the medi- flis majestys government towards the um 0 anv communication and 1 do not clergy of the presbyterian church and know that any has taken place whenever a available fund shall be es- have the body to which you belong ta- llllished fom tnenrocecdo of the cleivjfeiiaiiy pains to ascertain what is held to gv res ves the claims of he members i be the interpretation ol the statute of jffil gy rvesr as affecting the scotch presbyterian church n ie rhurch o scotland will be taken p ltslzi ii r u m oi me i in canada whether in point of la you inio consideration have auy claim upon the property reserved i have the honor to be sir your j f maintenance ofa protestant rhuich most obedient humble servant certainly wr rave an understanding on r w horton i thatsuhject and i was instructed to press what information have you of the j that matter io the memorial to the secreta- numher mid condition of the presbyte rian poitaton in the canadas which are in connection with the church of reexamination of tne rev john lee d o the committe are informed that you are desirous of adding some explanation to the evidence you gave upon a former occa sion the thing that i was most anxious to state is this i find it represented in a speech published i believe by doctor strachan that his letter to mrwilmot hor ton was written hastily in consequence of having learned that 8me members of the house of commons had receive letters from me stating that there were 30 orga nized congregations in upper canada in communion with the church of scotland now i beg leavo to state that prior to the time when dr strachans letter was writ ten and printed by order of the house of commons 1 had never written any letter on the subject and on the contrary my letters relating to that matter were written i have also to state that doctor strachan allow only six thercongregatious instead of the number which we had reasen re- perseut to exist and those be state to i of the independent or presbyterian ordi r how many do you believe thorc were i believo there were fully 20 mi outers how maoy congkgalld8 were tr ie the number of the congrekatiolsaccoicling to our information was at least 30 we have aiso now this informatiou with resnrd to two of the districts wfich dr strachan takes notice of as containing no presbyte rian congregatious with regard to niagara and gore there are eight presbuerian congregations in each 16 in all al though dr strachan docs not admit ooe are there ny other poiuts upon which you wish to make aoy statement to the committee i trust it will not be irregular to take this occasion to represent to the committee that it is very easy ru account for the increasing number of clergymen of the episcopal persuasion as the encou ragement ihey have received is so much greater and according to the information the general assembly have received ami a number of persons tbat have gooeour a schoolmasters some of them being licensed pieachers in the church of scotland have been prevailed upon to become episcopa lians and have received orders i ml that in one district tho western district three are mentioned as having io a short period become episcopalian fnd received urrfera in the church of england but although those individuals who have had preshue- rian education may be imiuccd to chango in this manner it has not been found so lar as we can learn that their congregfctious are disposed to go along with them vuton the contrary that the congregations re uitnvuujijwiift tnnwrfrho iiaiwottfuto and worship and church government which they prefer dr strartan himself was a schoolmaster aod educated ft t ihe church of scotland and the circumstance of his having gone over to the church of england so far rfj i can learn ha not at all tended to increase the number of prose- 1 tcs among the laity will you have the goodness to stte to the committee what are the grounds ipoit which the seceders have separated irom the church of scotlaud and whether those grounds exist or not in the province of l per cauada the fact is itint auog tho ordinal grounds of separati n of the seces sion from the church oi scoiiaud the strongest was the revival of the 1w of pa tronage there were some othei preunrfs which certainly ie admitted hy sny members of the secession not to exist eiw to the same extent as formerly in scotland it was alleged jy many of the earliest se- ccders tbat the church of scotland had se parated in some met sure from the doctrine of the confession of jitb hut i rather oe- liove that they are uow convinced runta vast majority of the churcii of scotland en- tertaio tho same views of doctrine which they themselves do is the ground ofdirterence which still e- parates them cciifined solely to what you call patronage or io the mode in which in consequence of the printing of his letter c patronage or io me ntoca in wmcii which appeared tu me and every member thoir respective ministers nre appointed n of the committee of which lam convenor i conceive that to be the chief ground and of letters from ministers ami others who re resident there us the committee of the general assembly was instiucted to correspond with those persons for the sak of obtaining precise informa tion hut the information whi h was expected by the church of scotland is not yet nearly completed returns not having been sent by the whole of the districts to which the queries were traus- muted is it not a rule with the general as- mtuedfaci it may be stuted that in the sembly of scotland that no minister should he sent io any congregaiion of ry of state for colonial affirs what opinion does the body to which you belong entertain on that subject i conceive that the general assembly of tho scotland i wj had a 6 m church of scotland in so far as aoy opi- nion has ever been expressed there con- as well as to every member of the church of scotland with whom i had any conver sation to contain very great misrepresenta tions mv letters were wc if in ie year 1s23 the presbyterian congrega tion at perth which began to be form ed only five years before and which though not served at present by a mi nister of the church of scotland must by express stipulation be so served in time to come contained not fewer than 270 communicants in petitions which the ceneral assembly has received from several ministers and elders in ca nada it s expressly stated that there are muny extensive and flourishing set tlements especially in upper canada the inhabitants of which are desirous o obtain clergymen of our national church and that their exertions in building churches and raising funds for tho sup port of clergymen would be greatly ani mated if they could be assured of bein placed under the jurisdiction aud pro tection ofthe mother church these petitions represent a great majority of tho protestant population as being of presbyterian principles and as having presbyienans without there is a certain ty of his beirg propeily ftipported that b9 been the iuic and the practice of the church of scotland under that rule how many ministers have been sent to the canada 3 so far as i know the number in uppei canada who have been sent under that rule is sot more than six have any gone there of their own ac cord vithout authority for whom no certain stipend has been provided we hate access to know that a consi derable number have gone out other wise some having been sent by particu lar socwtics private associations form ed for die support of sending ministers and miwionaries for the instruction of settlors there and there are a good ntirabei who call themselves presbyte rian minsters in upper canada in par ticular who profess to be in communi on wu the church of scotland but ceive tbat the church of scotland is as well entitled as the church of eugland to a share of that property to you hold that the words protes tant clergy exclude other denomina tions beside the church of england and the church of scotland i believe that the church of scotland has been disposed to consider it as applicable to the members of established churches and of established churches only if i say my opinion i would say so hut i can not take upon me to say that that is the universal understanding ofthe cburchbut think it is when did the assembly first take into consideration this claim i think about six years ao i have been only for three ycirs connected with the committee does the separation which his taken place between the two bodies of the scotch church exist io canada or would the two bodies unite there in ooe congregation we do oot think that the grounds ofthe seperation exist at least to the name ex tent there that they do io srotlnnd but still so fat as we kuow the members of and what i did slate was to tins purpose susss that it was a thing that could not he denied that there were 30 congregations in upper canada professing to adhere to the doc trine and to the worship ofthe church of scotland at the same time i did not state j that they were organized or that they had ministers ordaioed by the church of scot land but i stated at the same time thai on ly five or six had ministers who were or dained by thechurch of scotland have you a copy of that letter i can- ootsay that i have a copy but i stated in uiy letters exactly what is in the memorial which i laid before the committee the let ters that i wrote were chiefly to lord binn ing now the earl of haddington sir henry moncrieff i believe likewise wrote to mr kennedy and mr abercrombie upon the same subject and 1 think tbat he enclosed one or two letters from me to himself upon the subject the informati on which i had received ought to have been correct for i had been in communication with many individuals connected with up per canada three or four persons who ei ther were or had been ministers there and several other people who bad been iu the country and i am quite confident that i could have even given the names ofthe in dividuals tbat i mentioned will you hove the goodness to explain n what way this beats upon the subject inder the consideration of the committee i this letter of doctor straeha ns professes to give a representation not only ofthe state of the church of england in upperca- nadn but of the state ef the ministers and members in communion with the church of seotlaud and also the ministers of other orders now it is very material to us to es that body called the secession have not bound themselves to adhere to the same tarnish that those statements of doctor ttfindards which we acknowledge we strachans have been hastdy and inadver- standards understand that they generally recognize the confession of faith as beingconsist- eut with scripture but that thy do not bind themselves so strongly to th support of it as the members of the established church are bound do not all the ministers ofthe fe join the westminster confession f faith i do not know that they do now mil i un- dorstaod that if tbey do they o it with temly drawn up will you state what are the inaccuracies in his statement and the ground upon which you hold them to be inaccurate first of all with regard to thechurch of stotland he allows only two ministers of the churc of scotland to be in that pro vince now at that time i named live and i believe there was at least one other whose name was not then known to me indeed i may state tbat in scotland a very great proportion at least in large towns of those that attend the places of worship in communion with the secession arocom- parish churches ihe lower orders of people find it impossible to find accommodation what is the rule held by the members ofthe secession with respect to ths patro nage of the ministers that rule isti st the people must elect their own pastors aud ibere was a period io the church o scot land when tbat was the law in what way is the right ef patronage which you describe as being defied by the secession admitted by the congregati ons ofthe scotch kirk at prevent iu ibe clrirch of scotland the ministers iu ge neral are appointed either by private pa- trous or hy the crown can there be in lite 6tate of tie presby terian church in upper canada minlters appointed by the crown or by private pa trons there is a possibility of the thing existing but the thing does not exist at present are the ministers act illy elccied ly he people i believe not i undermar that this is the practice generally adopted with regard to those who re in conoetirn with the church of scotland a ounerrf peo ple feelintr that they ae capable ofontri- butiog iu some measure to the maicteii ce ofa minister write to fccoilaud requesting some ministers in whom tuey have confi dence or in some instances requcstiug of the presbytery to appoint a minister to be sent out to officiate among them engaging that they will pive an adequate mainte nance to that minister and i rather be lieve that sometiing like the same rule is observed in the secession aiboub i kve likewise reason to believe that some cf those who call themselves presb eriaus in canada are persons who have gone cu en their own adventure probably have gone out as teachers having previously received an education qualifying them io he ordain ed and they have come home and been ordained by the religious body will which they were previously connected are the committee to conclude from the answer you hcvd given that in poiut of fact neither can the rip it of eleruu xer- cisedby the seceders nor can thv right of patronage in the congregations of the church of scotland be acted upon iu ca-