- “EVIDENCE. TAKEN BY ( ae paLWAr Toronto, January 22nd. 1924. In the matter of the pelea ° , vidson ers, under, section 21a oF “The Consoli- dated Municipal Act, 1922,” for de-| t tachment from the town of Listowel of aie a farm lands described in echedual “A” hereto annexed, d the sa tasation of same to the adjoin- ing townships of Wallace and Elma. ENT B INGRAM, as . ba thission-| NICHO HERBERT "JACKSON, Ets @n ap- —plicant. r The Vice-Chairman—pid you eran get together before you came Ald. eponaldsol— —No. The Vice-Chairman—I thought the understanding was that you would get together and see what you could mith—We had a meeting but the Chyect of the meeting was to get us to, go back into the corporation. Commissioner. Ellis—Is there any suggestion now that you want to re- main in the town? Mr. Smith—No, none whatever. The Vice-Chairman—The Board will lay down the principal and you will do the adjusting yourselves. Commissioner Bllis—There will be pompaseanis figuring for somebody to Ald. Donalfson—I wish to state that I have always been a member of the committee in connection with this matter of the farmers and I do not think there would be a meeting without my being present and I never discussed the matter, with any of the farmers since the day t board was at Listowel, nor to my )knowledge| has any meeting been héld. ga sions may have taken pl Smith says but I never discussed it with any of the members The ¥i ice-Chairman — — Evidently you did not take seriously the Board’s order that you were to get together Ald. Donaldson—I was prepared to meet them if I was asked to do so. The town did not ask them to leave and they were leaving and I think they should have approached us and if they had done so we would have been aren to discuss it with them at any. tim Mr. David Greer— I was called}. pon to produce the material upon which we based our claim. We had a meeting on the 14th. December and thé time was too short in which to send it down but we have an af- fidavit of the sumer and the a- mount of assessment he places spon these forms tha e Vice have the assessment here Mr. Greer— I will put in the financial statement n. (marked exhibit No. 2.) The town- ship assessments were also sent down as well as the town assessments. Commissioner Ellis—The adjust- ment will be based on the town's assessment. ; Mr. Greer—Would not the fact that these men have been given a reduction on the debenture rate by tion o their asessment must have been too high? Commissioner Ellis—There is special provision in the ppl: t that any municipailty can ex- empt farm lands from any debent- ures issued for street lighting or street watering end various other th , and I have no doubt the town these landa need not be assessed on debentures sped for these pur- Bes, Mr. Donsidson— Yea, we did that ‘under the Act. I might just Assess- town of Listowel, that Mr. Davidson was as- sessed for something like $750 more than the land is a ssessed for at the present eee. Re ’ apoaalad and was represented b Morphy at the court and éfae consideration they took $750 off his assessment and left him at the same mentt that they now complain about as be- ing too high. That matter went to the court. Of revision and before the county judge and his assessment was lowered by $750. ‘Commissioner Ellis—If the assess- ment has been lowered by the judge, that is “what it’will be adjusted on, as far as we are concern What- over th @ assessment is now, is the as- seuphent we are dealing with. Mr. Dav ae is ve 800 now. ft was reduced by our ‘las year after it was Y reduced by judge, The Vice-Chairman—The t the Po the lands to that township and do Dig A eg the Board take that e@ matter; they. euiaently Ment to coe these gentlemen on a different basis s other residents of the ¢ township 0 Elma. Yerba applies to that The ‘Sivashiy think that if I ., in sopecies with ’ Mr. — is all Sigh amount of the are Donal oO the debentures. to meet on the Piano for four years paid up to the present; su’ will ‘continue ad snr thelr oa benture > Pango will = She eo be cared by} ments. these lan mture poe debt is not rt a a yabie utility or a ima paolo te Bilis—tt we LO eae e saat Bilis--Atw all,these| Met and the company pay 708, then, debentures general debentures, of y you will nave to Day it dian Aussies idiehentat DF Sena Sa ee have paid off seme $7,000 in the last 18 months, * dson-——They are general local improvement debentures of the Mr. Donaldson—Th@ back pay- town and there is a frontage rate, ments owing to the town amounted hem. to about $10,000 and when'the new company took it; over they paid the town so much t a proportion of that was interest that was in arrear: The ViceChairman—We might put in the order that if -this com- pany does default these lands should pay their proportion. “4 r—We have the financial statement ere the town of Listowel for the year 1923 and it would be a rather hard. matter to get the frontage payments in connection with some of these lo Commissioner Ellis—We are not interested in that. These ebent- te ag ra - the a “ Do ine am perfectly fied with t town and these gentlemen going eatist c* {th-——That is fair. out will have to pay their-. propor- tion. If they were debentures payably that but it seems to me that the ee in mir ont real point is, = a town in the | lon run sustain an ad to pay any propor- i Don aidson—t do. 1 do not ecnticle . ate any loss on the piano factory Mr. Donaldson—The town pays) because I think it will pull through oe Dt ieee ene eh ! but on the wheel fas factory I am satis- acme tied thine will be pte f for more than the inter-; Commissioner Bilis We are wi : ! ling to make them pay a half o in wane a the | that amount, but you cast remnant | ber you won . get anything unless Commissioner Ellis—All that ad there is a los ‘can take into account is the propor-| he Sieactinatvesne—~itiheti there ie tion that the town pays. The pro-' sy. matter of this read. portion paid by the property OWN-) wr Donaldson—Itmight point out ers cannot be taken into considera- -to you that in that particular piece tion of road that was entirely between ‘sown is eatih the: the town of Listowel and the town- ‘ship of Elma. We were arranging to a “Commissioner Eills—You = Pang make a permanent roadway out thers {and we drained the road an t rong aeed cel rio ol ct would have to be drained no acral whether the township of Wallac will have to do is ha take the | owned it or the town owned it. We pte To a ountin paid $785 ae ae jo the con- separately and you will take the as- eS ae Ellis Who sensed value of these lands as they! ‘the contract. are assessed today and then you will Mr. Donaldson—Listowel and EI- pein Oe an as of the entire | ma becatas | Wallace had no property there at t proportion of the assosrment of these "Commissioner Ellis This particu: “| lar item is between you Sou wil Gave to work out xed toe rT “ bnlagepe-¥ These b pager list of debentures what proportion! oa farms have uothing to to Ww these farm lands will have to pay. | Donaldeon—-If these farms go That ioe aber nog because| to ‘the township of Wallace this par- 7041. Having. dane ek Rag “wil ticular roadway goes with them and find that all these lands have o! bol fps pay Boies bag aay A ey read oat 2 Q, agiloge tired po and! Fe this $782 because we are really oa inunehion poll ga aces Senda | making a present of that to the cording § > ane assessed “mine anal a tia of ‘Wallace slong with t a the rats Pine will charge these lands | niles Commissioner Ellis—We can do made The Vice- Chairman—The wh- to with that money each year and pay! snip of Elma has paid $782 and you| ure debt of the town, but I it over to the town. Uses t 29! cidnes ite Acoiinienl’ want Wallace to pay the other $78 t e . down ‘ | Mr. Smith—We will take the nee we Neer This work was done whole assessment of the town of Lis-! through the County System of roads, towel and then get our proportion. | tnig was a County Provincial’ High- Commissioner Ellis—As these de-! i * and the Government pays 40%. bentures are paid off the amount; mmissioner—How did the town- you have to pay will decrease until) shee of Elma pay part of it? you get down to nothing; each year! My. Greer—They are part of that of course, you will pay something! county system less. There are some sidewalks, they; Mr. Do naldson—This amount of are no doubt local improvements and| ¢7g2 is owing to the town of Listo- you have not to pay any part of what! we] and the amount received from the properties have to pay. All you| the Government is deducted from it. have to pay is your ig ogo of Thfs is actually what Listowel pays a- what the town itself has to | part from the Government grant. The Mr. Greer—There are two debent- government grant is deducted from ures in connection with the Piano) this. The township of Wallace is in ompany, from the financial 6tate- the county of Perth, just the same as ment on page one, $1,921.90 has to| the township of Elma. be Bog aid, ; Commissioner Ellis—If these Smith—That is really a Joan | a had been detached two years and ‘it is being paid o o the township of Wallace and the . Greer—In 1922 they received | | eenenio of Elma between them, from the Piano Company, $1,921.90.! would each have to pay half. Commissioner Ellis—You could! yfr. Donaldson—That is right. leave that out, you have security and — Ellis—What have you are being paid off. | yo to say about your third claim, Greer—They have it in their Aiseing 400 feet, Gibson award aaeate again in 1921. | dr , cost $136. Commissioner Ellis—That is dis-' r Donaldson—That just goes un- posed of and the Wheel ‘aed is | ier aes the same heading as the somewhat similar to. that. | other, that is the outlet for the drain Mr eames is 2 guaran-| under the permanent roadway im- teed loa = provement. The drain goes down The Vice’Chairman—They are} through this land in the Township meeting coer’ debt as*they go along. ! of Wallace and the lots —4 owned by Mr. son—No, ‘some of the farmers company is defunct at this time. Commissioner Ellis—The road you Mr. Smith—The town has the pro-' spoke of before is a general improve- 7 on their hands. | ment, everybody has the benefit of onaldson—We have also on that. Does this particular drain ben-' =. hands: = debentures which we} efit the lands or any of lands of have to m these farmers which is — de- Commmuniieae Ellis—What assets; tached? have you against the debenture? Mr. Donaldson—Yes, it benefits Mr. Donaldson—We have a mort-! all the land of the farmers through gage on : te plant. It was started by! which it runs and it is also a ben- an American firm and apparently | efit to the roadway. It runs through they put one over on the town. The! Mr. Perc Davidson's farm and town guaranteed them to the extent! through Mr. Jackson's farm and then of $25,000 and the company went} through Mr. Vernon's land. broke and the town sold the build-| The Vice-Chai rman—Does it run ing to mpany in Toronto and through any lands, other than. those they defaulted. It is now on the! that are going to be detached from town’s hands but we have not of-, Listowel? Mr. Donaldson—There may be some [ttle lots there. I think Mr. . Davidson has a lot or two or three D mith—The property was sold | acres and Mr. Hanna; it is an open for $18, 000 and that is about the| ditch through these lots. This drain —_, of it. | com es between the town of Listowel missioner Ellis—You have a, and “Elma and goes across liability of about $37,000 which in-: farms into the river. We were charg- cludes interest, and you have the ed with 400 feet of this, which cost building. jus $136.00 and we are also charged e Vice-Chairman—If a certain! with the maintenance of that drain propertion was chargeable to these! for all time, under the engineer’s a- lands it might: be fair. wat ask that the township m Mr. Morley,’ Commissioner Ellis—Don’t. you; of Wallace recompense us for that think a fair division .would be that drain and then it is up to the town- you should take that indebtedness at the cost ship of ‘Wallace to apply where they please. half. We have = least $18,000, the Commissioner Ellis—These lands The Viee-Chalrman — Supposin. these lands were assessed at $18, 500 on the wheel’ factory and nothing the Piano Compan Mr. Smith That looks fair: Mr. e town still has’ of Wallace and the drai on the lots. Should not Wallace be Hable | for the maintenance? ‘Mr. Donaldson—tThe engineers a- ward. is a binding matter; we want (provision to ame sure that the = ae > en W more and they have they} le pay a proportion of| considerable | and a ce um the point is; where were these tile put in on Mr. Davidson's farm. Mr Nichol—The_ ‘aig run throtigh Mr. Percy Davidson’s fand. Mr. Greer—The oat whose land the drain goes w responsible for the a aiatananes of the ditch. sarOne® Commissioner Ellis—The point there is this: if the engineer’s award made thes “lands Hable 5 ges maintenance there nothing to do; they > still liable. If on the other hand, made the town of Listowel ible; that Nability should be transferred to the township of Wallace. Mr. Greer—It would _automatical- ly come to the township of Wallace. ommissioner Ellis—The town of Listowel béing specifically named in the award, there is doubt as to whether the transfer of would make that a Hability of the township of Wallace; there will be no harm done by putting it in the order if Mr, Donaldson thinks it will be any protection. The Vice-Chairman—tThe next it em opens up a very large question. bee are asking a refund of $782, be- ause these people are going out in- hm the country. They might make a claim for the moneys they have paid towards certain buildings that are in the town of*Listowel that they have contributed towards. Pai Donaldson—We have no town Fa , “The Vice-Chairman—You have a fire hall and these people will have no further interest in it, and they have contributed their share towards building that fire hall We are mak- ing these men pay their proportion of the debenture debt of the town, and you are asking them to refund this amount. I think you are going a little too far Commissioner Ellis—We are also making them pay the towns share of paving a number of streets. I think what we are making them pay can be offset against this item. Mr. Donaldson—lIt is not a ques- tion of these gentlemen paying it; ‘are getting the benefit of everything | are being attached to de Township| and a eek and a half it is not my view that these gentle- men should ‘be saddled with that ; $782. and $132. but I say the town- ship of Wallace should pay to the town of Listowel what she has got from the town of Listowel; you can- not charge any of our public build- ines to the township of Wallace. It ay be that these gentlemen are es g enough towards the debent- do not anding, over the township feel like Commissioner. Ellis—That _ brings up another question: are not the people of Listowel going to eas this road just as much as they ever did; are you really losing anything? Nr. Donaldson—We are losing the money that we paid out for that road. If these lots had been taken over previous to 1922 we would not have had to pay out that money. That money would have been paid out by the township of Wallace, and We are asking them to se a aig us for the money we handed over. Commissioner Ellis—On the other hand you are getting the use of that road just as much as if it remained in the town. When the Board laid down the rule that the detached |land should pay their share of the debenture indebtedness we frankly, to some extent, put a penalty on these lands for going out, and we debenture indebtedness of the town for expenditures they had made for the benefit of the lands which go out We were not bound to make that rule, we are not bound to make these lands pay the debenture debt. we could let them off a good .deal easier. We charged them with the debenture indebtedness of the town because we recognized that the town had gone to some expense at differ- ent times with regard to the lands going out. The Vice-Chairman—tThis is a dif- ult act to administer, and that is the only way we thought it could be worked out until such time as it is a- mended. I ink we will have to dis- allow the $782, and the other item | will remain Commissioner Ellis—That item remains in for the reason that the drainage benefits this particular land B algson—That $132 is dir- ectly beneficial to these lands and they should pay it? Deseo eae Ellis—That is why e are allowing it, you see the dis- tinction, the street is a benefit to everybody, and the drain is a ben- efit to the lands throngh which it goes. Mr. Beanie think they are entitled a pay that The Vice-Cha irman—Comm issfon- er Elis . of the opinion h township should take care of that drain; what about the $136 of the he he owners through which the drain ru Com miciozer Ellis—I em inclin- ed to think this drain being a bene- fit, primarily, to the property through which it runs, the property a which it runs should © pay at. Mr. Jackaon—We were compelled to put in a 12 inch tile, and a 3 inch tile would have been sufficient; and we had put in a four foot drain foot drain been sufficient. The mest etd ‘di ae ork me _,bonaldaon—tt would “have been the same if the township of allace own = ae 5 ae J would | will siser Oo bth out of paying the $782 and they the lands} 59 e| been changed. their eeventre to it In. some of the other cases the j School: os nthe Vice-Chairman—Should not township of Wallace pay. that are being let gh @ good r. Greer—1T would not want to! pak for the township council in| that ma The Vice-Chai rman— We _ will the $136 speak fot the township, be es SR the to will wnship. Mr. .Greer—They have the agricul- tural loan "hh. 239, ahd the annual payments on the debentures of $160.- 48. My friend, Mr Smith, states that there are 12 acres of land that this society owns, and that is a good as- set, and the land should be worth the amount of the debentur Mr. naldson—It is a combin- ed agricultural lety of the town of Listowel and the townships of El- ma and Wallace; th are all inter- ested in that agricultural society. It is a farmers’ society and the town helps them eut, Coutininiener Ellis—You will find that you share will be $1 or $1.- per year for eight years. I do will make 30c a year difference to anybody. Mr. Greer—I just mentioned it — cause my attention was called to Mr. Smith—What is the dlr 2 Ibs. Seedless Raisins for 2'pgs. Seeded Raisins for Bi is ; he. ; 2 pgs. Large Prunes for 2 Ibs. Dried Apricots for 2 cans Tomatoes for 100 Ibs, a alte Sgr eed : ic BSc me ; 4 ¢ e" 5 cans Corn for eo 600. fom Extra Special ! Blended Blk. Tea, 70c Ib., 5 Ibs. for $3.25. The Grocer R. A. CLIMIE : allace Street that we have to pay off in connec- tion with the factory? Ellis—What it amounts to is a debenture payment of $2,179. For the purpose of your calculation you’ will just cut that in half, and what you will have to pay on the half will be your proportion comparing your assessment with the town's as- sessment. Mr. Smith—Supposing they the factory will that relieve us. ommissioner Ellis—That . why we are allowing you half; we under- stand the liability ~ $37,000, with interest a principa h on pay half whether it is $18,000 or $16,500. The judgment will be made on that basis. Commissicner Ellis—Before you can really gét this thing worked out you will have to get the total as- sessment of Listowel. mith—We have that. Commissioner Ellis—Then you can stay right here and try and get sell this thing worked out, and if you have any difficulty we will be here and ready to help you. Mr. Greer—We haven't the portion of the ratepayers. The Vice-Chairman—You have the material at hand at Listowel, and when you return you can make the adjustments according to the prin- ciples we have laid down. Commissioner Ellis—The order will have to be approved by Mr. Greer and aie ldeuehip be and so pro- as ma, Pond} zs |eomeboay represent ink fie farmers idson—They have seiaed the. sated” tor electric ‘ight since we left the t Commissioner Ellis—That is one thing in which we are powerless to help you. Once you are out, you are ut. Mr. Davidson—They are charging us 6c per K.W.H. and 3c; they are! charging us a floor space of $5.60 whereas it used to be 90c. Mr. Greér—There is a school sec- tion, a union between the two town- oe The town does not come into! t The Vice-Chairman—There will be paying taxes in the union school section as well as Listowel. Mr. Greer—$443.27 is the amount levied each year, that will be levied for seven years yet. We have paid three of the debentures. Mr. Donaldson—The 12 mill school rate in Listowel covers the running of the schools, paying the teachers and other expenses. The Vice-Chairman—Of course it was understood what your Hability would be. I don’t know how we can relieve you. What do you think of relieving them of the payment in the town by reason of their having made payment up to the present time? Mr. onaldson — Personally I would not feel like accepting that. To be candid about it, I was surpris- ed when you gentlemen laid it down in Listowel so plainly to these men about the debentures and what they would have to pay that they were still anxious to leave the j/town. I would not want to put a nag ll in the way of anybody. wap a myself and I have tatled to oo mall along where they are goi to bet- ter themselves, and I have said that if they lived long enough until the debentures were all paid they might possibly have cheaper taxes. Every- body in Listowel understood what the Board had said, and I would not like to go back to Listowel and say that had been changed. It takés something like $20,000 to run our schools, I wish to be fair and to speak kindly in connection with this matter, but I don't know how I can go back and say this ruling has Commissioner Ellis—It is quite true what we say, we did lay down a general principle. dson—They were quite ready to go out at Listowel, and cannot see why thoy are squirming to-day. There was nothing said about schoo] ‘debentures in the township. The Vice-Cheirman—You ave the remedy dn your os hands. You can stay in or go out. Commissioner Bilis—We la fol- lowed that policy in all. case We have disallow an ftem teeay of hae we considered you d.be paying your share of the Now if we begin might have to go over the wibie thing again. “ite ice-Chairman—I in Ss have to stand by our ruling, i s unf ,. but we cannot Seip woul th simply continued to school. Roses, Purity, Maple Leaf, STOCK Deliveries to any part of town. GRAIN, SALT, FLOUR and FEED Try the Listowel Elevator for High Grade Royal /Household and Pastry Flour. Se Cattle Salt, 70c cwt. and 500 Ib. Jots at 60c cwt. No. 1 Fine House Salt, 80c cwt. and 500 Ib. lots at 75c. cwt. POULTRY FEEDS—Corn, Wheat, Western Oats, Scratch Feed, Laying Mash, Oyster Shell and Meat Scrap. FEEDS—Bran Shorts, White Screenings, Corn, Western Oats, Oil Cake Meal and Tank- C. H. SMITH Flour. Five Ground Middlings, Phone 256. . PURE LINEN TOWELLING “Se : . Sie Fey ge, Sn + yr. per ya: Not more than 5 yds. to a customer S. FELDMAN LISTOWEL ’PHONE 291 ot be charged an excessive fee for allowing your children to attend the town schools. Owing to the fact that we have made you pay your propor- tion of the debenture debt, you should be treated the same as other residents of the town. However if you cannot agree on that before the paces? is made the board will have take the matter under further ponatderniion and make a decision. Commissioner Ellis—We think you should not pay the debenture in- debtedness of the town and in a dition pay a very large amount extra over and above what the people in the town pay for the schools. Our suggestion is that you try and get this matter adjusted. It won't be ad- justed with the town council, it will be with the Board of BNducation. If you fail in making a settlement we will be glad to hear whet each one of you have to say. We want you to get fair treatment from the Board of Education if any of you want to send your children to the town schools. We would like the Board of Education to agree upon a reasona- ble charge; if you cannot agree upon a reasonable charge, we will leave the matter of making you pay the de- benture debt of the schools -open. Don't expect to get your school rate for nothing, you will have to pay something as non-residents, the only question is what is a reasonable eo for you to be called upon cd think you should be charged-a little less than other non-residents because you are called upon to pay this debenture debt. in connection with the schools of the town ADJOURNED. Keep your faith in all beautiful things: in the sun when it is hid- den: in the spring when it {is gone. And then 1 will find that Duty and Service, and the old ogres and bugbears of, life— nang oe x their deep- have. est» ur. Donaldson The unfortunate | set th in this schoé! sec- PRINCESS THEATRE Friday and Saturday EARLE WILLIAMS “Fortune’s Mas 9? Two Reel Comedy: “THE NUISANCE” citadel bith de ola