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Section Two The Canadian Statesman, Bowmanyjlle, April 2, 1975 9 Carruthers MPP Participates In Throne Debate in Ont. Legislature On Thursday, March 20th, Alex Carruthers, M.P.P., par- Ak1ated in the Throne debate e Ontario legislature. His remarks, as contained in Hansard, and including many interruptions from other members are included in the ftilowing article. Mr. A. Carruthers (Dur- îam): Mr. Speaker, I arn .leased to have the opportun- ity of joining with my col- leagues in this debate on the Speech from the Throne. In extending congratulations to all those who obtained new offices of responsibility I want,in particular, to extend a personal congratulations to you, sir (Speaker Russell Rowe, MPP Northumberland) because you and Ihave shared over the years a great deal in common being representa- tives for the two sister counties, the united counties of Northumberland and Dur- ham. We have ridden the rods together for a number of years on a day and night basis and in assuming the duties and responsiblity of Speaker, you have not only brought honour to yourself but honour to the great and historie county of Northumberland of which I am now a resident. Mr. Stokes: Is this one of the member's swan songs? Mr. Carruthers: It could be my last speech so the member had better listen. Mr. G. Nixon (Dovercourt): He might learn something. Mr. Carruthers: Mr. Speak- er, your skillin administering the office and the affairs of the Legislature have been justif- iably recognized by your colleagues in the Legislature and I join with them in extending very sincere con- gratulations. Indeed, sir, you are rather fortunate in your position in the Ontario Legislature in comparison with the office of the Speaker in some of the other jurisdictions. I had the pleasure of having lunch with the representatives from Ott- awa who are touring the globe and studying the operation of the various parliaments throughout the world. They were speaking about the parliament in Canberra, Aus- tralia, and there I understand the Speaker's responsibilities aren't really to the Legis- lature-his responsibilities are to the pary in power. Mr. ShuIman: One might get the same impressionhere. Mr. Carruthers: No, one doesn't get that impression. Mr. Shulman: Only when they count the votes. Mr. Carruthers: One out- standing feature .of this pre- S-i Speaker is that he is very c i ~\M. Shuirnan: He can't couint. Mm. Carruhers: He 's vemy fair. Mr. Shulman: He can't count. He never counts right. Mr. Carruthers: He's un- biased. Mr. Shulman: Next time we l a vote, let's see how he iunts it. Mr. Carruthers: If there is any partiality shown it is to that side of the House because it's very difficult to get his eye on this side. Mr. Shulman: We have not noticed that. Mr. Carruthers: In the Canberra parliament, as I said, the Speaker's allegiance is to the party. They sai while the were there the Speaker too the liberty of bringingone of the members of the cabinet to order and the Prime Minister of the day-it is a labour government by the way, too; a group of socialists --said, "You goofed it. You goofed it. You've had it." Mr. Shulman: Here they take them in a back room. Mr. Carruthers: And I expect the next day he was out of a job. Mr. Shulman: Here they call him out. The last inde- pendent Speaker got fired by a rime minister. His name was ill Stewart; not the Minister of Agriculture and Food. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Carruthers: Mr. Speak- er, 1974 has been a very eventful year in the riding of Durham and one cannot help regretting that in the redistri- bution pro osalitnow appears that the riding of Durham will be fragmented. My own town- ship of Hope and the town of Port Hope go to your riding of Northumberland, sir. The township of Cavan goes to the riding of my hon. friend from Peterborough; the township of Manvers goes to my hon. friend from Victoria; and the township of Cartwright goes to the new riding of North Durham. This leaves the riding with the town of Bowmanville and the village of Newcastle, thé township of Clarke and the former town- ship of Darlington which now form the town of Newcastle.'in addition, the riding of East Durham has now atided 34,000 people out of the city of Oshawa, which makes it rather an urban riding. I do say this, Mr. Speaker, that those menibers fron' Cavan, Peterborough, Vic- toria, and North Durham are receiving a very fine part of Ontario as an addition to their ridings. They are receiving a very fine and a very loyal group of people; very fine peop e. There have been problems, Mr. Speaker, and I wish to bring them to the attention-in fact I have already brought them to the attention of the minister-within the newto*n of Newcastle. There has been confusion and I have had some representation from that com- munity. Mr. Stokes: Which of those riding is going to get the dump? Mr. Carruthers: I will get around to that in a few minutes. I thought the mem- ber would want to hear about that. Mr. Shulman: They are going to divide it equaly and put it ih each of them. M F1. Carruthers: In the town of Newcastle there is a bit of a roblem in the fact that we ave the town of Bowmanville inside the town of Newcastle. When people come out from Toronto and see that sign reading: "Town of Newcastle, 24,000"-up near Ajax some- -hy e ao plactey Qk for-the majit street ila Newcastle. There is a difficulty. I would recommend that area be given a different designation, be it a borough or a district. As far as I am concerned I would favour the area municipality of Newcastle. I have been as- sured they are going to give this consideration and I have asked the municipal council of the town of Newcastle to give it some thought. I have suggested a number of desig- nations to them and I trust they will be passing a resolu- tion to that effect. At the present time, de- velopment and restructuring studies are taking place in the county of Northumberland. I am sure in the days and months ahead that study will result in the establishment of a restructured form of region- al govermient in the county of Northumberland. BOWMANVILLE DENTURE CLINIC 33 King St. E. - 623-4473 PATRICK G. DEEGAN, D.T. Office Hours: MondaytoFriday 8:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Saturday 9:00 a.m. to 12 Noon An nouncing.. Beginning Tuesday, April 1, we will be offering an' Air-Conditioning and Refrigeration Sl 0 à 0"0 Domestic and Commercial - 10 Years of Service - 24-Hour Emergency Service RISEBROUGH REFRIGERATION R.R. 2, Box 29 Orono TEL. 983-5702 Mr. Stokes: That Garden Hill is a fine place. Mr. Carruthers:It is indeed. Mr. Stokes: Lovely walnut trees there. Mr. Carruthers: I said I would bring the member some of those walnuts. I shouldn't mention this but- Mr. Stokes: That is another broken promise. Mr. Carruthers: No, it isn't. The fact remains that for once, for the first time that I can recall, and some of those walnut trees are very old, the walnuts were inedible this year. That's a little sidelight. Mr. J.M. Turner (Peterbor- ough): Sounds a little squirrel- ly. Mr. Shulman: Things are turning bad for the Tories everywhere.* Mr. Carruthers: Mr. Speak- er, I would like to refer to the regional government, because this bas been one of the issues in this riding of Durham. It's not easy to create a new government. It takes leader- ship, and thank goodness we have leadership on this side of the House. We all tend to resist change, and in the establishment of the regional municipality of Dur- ham and the restructuring of the new county of Northum- berland, this resistance to change has been the basis for concern on the part of both the elected representatives and the taxpayers. Welive in a pluralistic society, Mr. Speaker, where many people have different views and different ideas and different values. There are not just two sides to many of the issues confronting us today, there are a dozen sides. In the process of resolving them, no golitician can afford to be ehind the people nor can he be too far in front. Effective and relevant local government is a key indicator to the health of any society. It is essential that action be taken to assure it is equipped to do the tasks which must be done; that's the secret and that's the whole concept of regional government. In order to accomplish this, local autonomy must be main- tained by centralizing, to the greatest degree possible, pow- er and authority, supported by increased unconditional grànts, within the orbit of the strengthened local govern- ment. We have hearci quite a bit in the last few days about local autonomy, and I am going to come to that in a few minutes. It is perhaps appro- priate to review some of the asic reasons for local govern- ment reform, because we have many counties now in the process of restructuring. These reasons can be defined. There is the reduction through 'amalgamation-of- municipalities with limited resources. And one of the probleins facing municipali- ties today is the limited resources they have to provide the services required by their people. The number of munici- palities has decreased from 964 in 1968 to 838 in 1974. Now, Mr. Speaker, through amalgamation, we avoid the, annexation battles which have prevailed in the past and under which assessment re- sources of one municipality were sacrificed to the benefit of a neighbouring municipal- ity. This bas been prevalent throughout the province and it has been a live issue in the area which I have been privileged to serve. You eliminate the destructive and inefficient competition be- tween municipalities for in- dustrial and commercial as- sessment, and this is a very important point when we consider regional govern- ment. The pooling of municipal resources under a regional form of government provides a strong economic base for the construction of sewer, water and major road projects. In other words, it restores to a major degree, Mr. Speaker, the local autonomy of the area. Otherwise, without that gooti economicbase, it cannot carry onanti rovde he services requiret without de- pendíng upon some senior form of government. It enabies the establishment of a co-or dinatedi transit system, not only within the restructuredi municipality it- self or the region, but also in co-operation with other me- structureti communities. This is the key to the concept of megional goveranment as it relates to Metropolitan Toron- to. The setting up of the inter-egioai transit com- mission is one of the major steps ati tieisions matie by this gvernet Againd rsay against considierable opposi- tion. Although I regret that up to thspoit it hsntthatcpa a short periodi of time the new region of Durham will be mnvolvedi in that inter-regionali transit programme, because it ail goes back to the MTARTS report anti the Toronto- centred region. The key to the whole thing is transportation and communication through- out that horseshoe region around Metro Toronto. We have done a great deal through regional government to control growth and at the same time provide for the people an excellent transit service. Regional government re- lieves the pressures of bur- geoning urbanization. It deals with problems arising there- from, including pollution con- trol, land use planning and waste disposal. And this is very important. You know and I know, Mr. Speaker, that no municipality can plan unto itself. There must be planning over a large region. This is the difficulty we have experienced in our area, where one municipality will plan for a housing develop- ment just across the border and the neighbouring munici- pality plans for something else. And if the senior govern- ment tries to, shall I say interfere or advise, then they are alwaysaccused of using the big stick. You hear the cry for local autonomy, and right- ly so. Again, I repeat that the objective of regional govern- ment is, through good leader- ship, to restore local auton- omy to the municipalities of this province. It provides a permanent staff to deal with problems, suchas planning, which require a continuity of experience. I think this is very important, Mr. Speaker, very important. In municipalities which I have represented over the years, we have had to hire consultants after consultants. One municipality hires this group of consultants; some- body hires another group of consultants. In the new regional munici- gality of Durham, we now ave a permanent planning branch which will provide good planning on a continual basis in the years ahead. Debate and concern with respect to local government will continue and should continue, but the fact that 150 to 160 municipalities in On- tario over the past year or two have been placed under min- isterial orters is not only a blunt comment on the ca- pacity of small communities to deal with their problems, but it is also, Mr. Speaker, an indication of the urgency for municipal reform, particular- ly in those rapidly develòping areas of the province. I become very concerned when I hear the Leader of the Oppostion (Mr. R.F. Nixon) decrying the steps taken by this government la this pro- vince. It's a sad reflection on their part. Mr. J.E. Bullbrook (Sarn- la): The member must try to control himself. Mr. E.P. Morningstar (Wel- land): Right on. Mr. G. Nixon: He doesn't know what he's for. Mr. Bullbrook: If he is going to be provocative we might have to interject, and we wouldn't want to do that. Mr. Morningstar: Give them some more fire. Let's go. Mr. Carruthers: Another issue that has received con- sîierable attention-anti this is what the hion. member for Tjhundier-Bay refemmefl to! bas- been the proposed CPR waste disposalsite in my township of Hope, designed to accommo- date, in particular, Metropol- itan Toronto's waste. This has been one of those emotional issues, Mr. Speaker. It has created a great deal of controversy, and I would like to place on the record some of the background of that propo- sal. Public opposition to the proposal has been ably pre- sented by the local groups, and particularly by the local press. The local council of the townshp of Hope has also opposed the project. While an environmental hearing.board has reported favourably, but on a conditional basis, it is perhaps in order that we do put this report on the record. The Ministry of the Environ- ment has, in addition to studying the report of the Environmental Hearing Board, made a very deep and extensive study of the site itself to see if it is environ- mentally adaptable for a waste disposal facility., Mr. Morningstar: Right on. Mr. Carruthers: It should be noted that the site, if approved environmentally-and that is the responsibility of the Minis- try of the Environment; I regret that in many instances they are trying to put the responsibilityon the minister to turn that project diown. Mm. Morningstar: Shame. Mm. Carruthers: The only responsibility he actually bas is to diecidie whether that site is environmeanlly suitable or whether it is not. If it is diecidied that it is not environ- mentally soundi then that's the endi of it. But if the research anti the investigation prove that site is environmentally soundi then he anti bis assistants, or bis staff, can be taken into court to prove it if the CPR wants to take that action. La tlhe fnal analysis, that mezoningti eappotr envro- mentally, anti there it cornes back to the responsibility of the local mumicipality. No dobt if tha is rthe case thee Ontario Municipal Board. I think I shouldi place on record wbat the proposai was, so that members bave an idea of what tbe background of the proposal really is. We are inclineti to oppose everything these days, but I am of that school that likes to take a real good look before I say no. I want to look at both sides of the situation ver carefully. I want to look at ail the factors that may affect it in the future. Mr. G. Nixon: Right on; that's the wa to do it. Mr. Carruthers: I want to put on record what the proposal of the CPR was. They proposed to-dispose at the site all deliveretidomestic waste generated in the township itself without any charge to Alex Carruthers, M.P.P. the municipality for the life- tirne of the landfill. In other womds, they d wtrpreparet to wrovi de frew use of that fandfill site for the township of Hope. The amen co.prisiag the sanitary lani io, wi had been used for the disposal of waste, will be turnet over to the townshi when completet, subject, of course, to the Environmental Protection Act. This will include the resodded area and the wooded screens around these areas. I bave toureti the amen anti I have to be honest, I bave to be frank. The area bas many large stones as large as many of the desks in this roomn. t bas neyer been agricultural land; it is wooded with sorne beautiful gorges which must be protected. An Environ- mental Hearing Board, as I said before, made its decision conditional that all that pro- tection would be provided. t is all very clearly outlined. After it is completed it wil1 be turned bac kto the municipal- ity as a park site with full protection of the natural eatures. CPR agreed to negotiate with Hope township la good faith for t e payment of a royalty on each ton. The were prepared to pay so muc a ton for the waste matemiai which would be disposed of in the sanitary landfil site; or, in lieu of that royalty, they would make n payment of money to be used for the benefit of the citizens of Hope township. Now that wasn't bribery, I don't think. We all ealize-as I said before Ilike to look on all sides of this-and I realize the city of Metropolitan Toronto has a problem. If members mead this morning's financial page of the Globe and Mail they wîll have noteti there tflat recyc- -ing -the waste-for -ex&n-ple- pape ris almost a iost cause until they develop some new techniques. With the hon. member for Dovercourt and others we visited Continental Can; we visited Dofasco; we visited a number of industries which are doing a major amount of recycling. They all stated the same problem: the problem is in the collection and the separation of the materials. That can only be done, Mr. Speaker, by having a large amount of the waste available so it can be separated with the equipment. We can't have expensive equipment here and expensive equipment there, ail over the place; it must be employed on a full-time basis. Mr. Stokes: Where does the member suggest it be? Mr. Carruthers: We have set up six places in the rovince, and we have one ere-just wait until I finish. The company was preparet to discuss the negotiate com- mercial arrangements with other municipalities la the region- Mr. Stokes: That could be a whole new industry for Hope township. Mr. Carruthers: for the use of the site for the disposal of the waste. Practically every municipality in the are is having a problern with waste-disposal and I think this is general throughout the province. At the present time a study is underway in the county of Northumberland, which now includes the town of Port Hope and the township of Hope, to develop a facility for waste disposal for the municipalities in the area. The province is financing that to a major degree. Lt is difficuit. I bave f0 be very frank and very honest. It is easy to discuss th-se things, it is easy to plan and say we must do something about it, but when it comes down to the final analysis and a decision bas f0 be matie, if is very tifficult for a numbervof municipalifies- say 14 munie- ipalities f0 tecite whic mu- nicibality is going to have that waste disposai site. Mr. Stokes: It is like the weatber. Everybody talks about if ant nobody does anything about i. Mm arruthers:. Thats rght; everybodiy wants it over tere. Let's be honest about these things anti let's be very frank. That is a problem anti I arn going to be very mnterestedi to sec, after many thousandis of dollars have been spent, who is going f0 make the diecision. I hope the diecision will be matie at the local level; I hope that local autonomy will prevail anti I hope the local municipal councils, their reeves anti deputy reeves anti councillors will make that decision la the truc demo- cratic style. Mm. Mormingstar: Right on. Mm. Carruthers: The com- pany was preparedi f0 make available land and other assistance at the Hope town- ship site to further research the programme, and this is the point the member for Thunder Bay raised. They were pre- pared to put in a research station there and a recycling plant. They were also pre- pared to participate in the evelopment of a recycling plant at the site with the government, and that could be another site. They were pre- pared to do further research in the programme on solid waste separation and recycling which is being undertaken by the province. Then the com- pany stated they were aware of the great necessity for control of pollution and they were interested in operating an excellent landfill site and the opportunity to participate in the control of the environ- ment and practical recycling schemes. I realize, Mr. Speaker, that many people in my area wouldn't- agree with them. I have to be honest and I have to be frank. I have visited that, site. I have walked over the whole area. I see the advan- tages it offers. I can sym- pathize with the people who, don'twant waste from another source, particularly a large area ike Metropolitan Toronto. Mr. Stokes: I thought there were too many big boulders there. Mr. Carruthers: There are big boulders too, very large boulders. The area has never been farmed. So what do we do? We have Metropolitan Toronto with a very great problem. Due to the immigration policy, which I will mention a little later, some 50,000 or 60,000 new citizens are added to the population of the city every year. Figure that at so many tons of waste per person and they have a growing problem. I think we have to accept some responsibilities and we have to loo at these things from every angle. While realizing Toronto's predicament, L also realize that the rights of' the local people must be respected and every assurance must be given that those rights will be Srotected. I think we have to ave some faith. Mr. Speaker, you know and I know when we visit some of the waste disposal sites presently exist- ent in our rural areas they are not very acceptable. I think people judge modern sanitary waste dis posal sites by those undesirable and certainly not picturesque waste disposal sites that we see around the country, some of them burn- ing, some of them with rats; I know one that is haîf full of water. Talking about pol- lutLi-on, 1 lhiink there wuid !îé pollution from it. Mr. Stokes: Wind him up. Mr. Carruthers: I didn't get the opportunity to hear the Leader of the Opposition in his Throne debate speech, but I did read his speech very carefully and L'm going to refer to it in a few minutes. But I was in the Speaker's chair for the speech of the leader of the New Democratic Party. Mr. Stokes: Fine perform- ance. Mr. Carruthers: l'm going to say I congratulate him on his effective, and I may say very clearly enunciated policy of the New Democratic Party- He enunciated very clearly that it was certainly a policy of socialism, which bas brought England to its knees, and down which road we are heading very rapidly. Mr. Stokes: Is the member sayinglhe is heading down the road to socialism in Ontario? Mr. Carruthers: No. I con- gratulate him on his effective- ness and I say this, he clearly drew a sharp line between the policy of his party and the policy of this party. But I have to say honestly that I, together with the people of Ontario, still find it very difficult to determine what the policy of the official opposition really 's. Mr. Shulman: They are against the governmnent. Mr. Carruthers: May I suggest that the government will do well to heed the leader of the NDP's speech. I would ho pe, Mr. Speaker, that the cabinet ministers in their respective roles will be pre- pared to reply to that speech, because it was effective. I thought it would have got more newspaper copy than it did. No doubt it was a repetition of a great many jewels of the past, but still it was effective. He brought up a number of points which I thnk called for rebuttal. I hope that get involved ad pdmenrt th government's side. Mr tkes: Please do. Mr. arruhers We are leadrship in the days aheadb It can see that, because both the speakers referred many times to leadership. I think this originates with Watergate - destroy the leader. This is the old Communist tactic. It goes back to the very early days of communism when their policy was to destroy the people's faith in their leaders. Mr. Stokes: That's what Bob Stanfield did in the last election. Mr. Carruthers: This doesn't apply just to this party or to the Premier of this province (Mr. Davis). It applies to federal people as well. There seems to be a determined effort, a policy on the part of many groups to destroy leadership in our democratic system. Mr. Shulman: The leaders are co-operating with that. Interjection by an hon. member. Mr. Carruthers: They are not. It is a dangerous move in a democratie society. Interjections by hon. members. Mr. CaI-ruthers: Mr. Speak- er, leadership calls for object- ives. A leader must have some objectives. The only object- ives that I can see that the official opposition has is that it is over there and we're over here and its members want to get over here. Mr. Stokes: That's dirty. It is called politics. It is a dirty word. Mr. Carruthers: But they don't tell us how they are going to do it. I think they should tell us how they are going to do it. Mr. B. Newman: Tell us what was in the Throne Speech. Mr. G. Nixon: Didn't the member read it? Mr. Carruthers: Certainly the objective of the New Democratic Party is very obvious, It is to nationalize and to - Mr. Shuflman: When we come to power we are going to socialize all the women. Interjections by hon. members. Mr. B. Newman: Tell us what was in the Throne Speech.1 Mr. Carruthers: l'm going to refer to that Throne Speech in a minute. Interjections by hon. members. Mr. Carruthers: It is no trick to be captain of the ship when the waters are calm, but I'm telling you, Mr. Speaker, it takes leadership when times are difficult, and we are going through difficult times. I join with my colleagues, and I think the very large propor- tion of the people of Ontario, in thanking our lucky stars that we have real leadership in the present government of Ont- ario. Mr. Nixon: Right on. Interjections by hon. members.. Mr. Shulman: We are happy it is there also. Mr. Carruthers: That lead- ership goes back over many years. We had Mr. Frost. He was condemned over the northern pipeline. It was going to be a flop or a failure. It has been a success. I sat in this House and listened to the opposition to the Pickering project and the Candu system. Certainly the government stuck its neck out. They took a chance. Hon. J.W. Snow (Minister of Government Services): But it worked. Mr. Carruthers: But it worked. lt's the grentest success.' People of littie faithl over there condemned it and said it wouldn't work. Mr. B. Newman: Tell us' about Krauss-Maffei. Mr. G. Nixon: Give it to 'em. Mr. Shulman: Let him be careful. He may go off the rails here. Mr. Carruthers: L'm just coming to Krauss-Maffei. Mr. G. Nixon: He is on the right track. Mr. Shulman: Krauss- Maffei wasn't. Mr. Carruthers: We had the same cry we've heard over the years, that Krauss-Maffei would be a failure, a flop. Krauss-Maffei is not dead. It is not dead. Mr. Shulman: It may not be dead, but it is well buried. Go over to Exhibition Park. Hon. A. Grossman (Provin- cial Resources Develop- ment): The member for High Park will rue those words. Mr. Carruthers: Even in England, in the economic condition we find that socialist state today, they are still experimenting with that same type of a system. Mr. Shulman: They will' be experimenting after we are all dead, but it won't go. Hon. Mr. Grossman: That is what they said about the airplane. Mr. Carruthers: One of these days it's going to be a succesd.a's te same storay I've heard over the years from these people. I heard the former leader of the NDP condemning it. Lt wouldn't work, he thought. Let's have some faith for a change. Hon. Mr. Snow: 'Ihink positively. Mr. McIlveen: They said the same thing about Candu. Mr. Carruthers: That's real leadership when the govern- ment is prepared to take such a risk. That's just the differ- ence, Mr. Speaker. Maybe I'm taking too long. Hon. Mr. Snow: They are negative thinkers over there. nSome hon. members: No, Mr. Carruthers: That's the difference between gocialism and our free-enterprise sr Foulds: Does the mem- ber really believe that? Mr. Shulman: 0f course, we don't pay any taxes ! Mr. Carruthers: The social- ists say the government must run everything. "Let's build up a real bureaucracy," they say, "and let the professors lead it." Hon. Mr. Snow: Think positively. Mr. Carruthers: One of these days the bureaucracy is going to run the government. Mr. Shulman: It does now. An hon. member: Oh, no. Mr. Carruthers: Not yet, but it is getting close. Hon. Mr. Grossman: It says put in the NDP and make it official. Mr. E.J. Bounsall (Windsor West): It's run by the bureap- cracy now! Mr. Carruthers: Mr. Speak- er, the member for High Park knows, and I know, that he doesn't belong there. Mr. Stokes: It's just a matter of degree. Mr. Carruthers: He's a free-enterpriser. Mr.Shuiman: I am the only socialist. Interjections by bon: members. Mr. Speaker: Order please. The member for Durham bas the floor. Interjection by an hon. member. Mr. Carruthers: Sir John A. Macdonald said: "The reason I have been able to beat George Brown is that I1have been able to look a little bit ahead." And that bas been the policy of the Progressive Conservative Party down through the years. An hon. member: Right on. Interjections by hon. members. Mr. Carruthers: Mr. Speak- er, I would like to refer to another area which was cover- ed in the Throne Speech. The leader of the NDP, in his criticism of the Speech from the Throne, stated: "This House regrets the failure of the Ministry of Housing to pursue policies which could combat the drastic decline in house building now occur- ring." Mr. Shulman: Does the member agree? Mr. Carruthers: I am not going to defend the Minister of Housing (Mr. Irvine) at this time because he can defend himself and he bas outlined a very progressive programmo But in tie next few minutes I do want to outline some of the roblems that we face in ousing. It is not just the Province of Ontario- Mr. Shulman: But that is the major problem. Hon. Mr. Snow: We heard the leader of the NDP- Mr. Carruthers: The federal government is involved. The provincial government is in- volved. Every municipal council is involved. Every developer is involved. And the general public is involved.. There are five groups we've got to work with. Certainly il bas become very obvious Mr. Speaker, that housing is going to become a major issue in the next election. Mr. J.P. Spence (Kent): It is now. Mr 'Shulman: Yes, that's going to be a very bi issue. Mr. Carruthers: Ant we arc going to be very proud of the programme and the progress that has been made by this government, against great odds, I may say. Mr. Morningstar: Compar- cd to otheýr jmstitin e Mm. Carruthersý: :Mmi. Spieak- er, I think it would appear perfectly in order at this time to review some of the pro- blems involved in developing the housing programme. Mr. Shulman: First there is the minister. Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South): And Hydrogate here. Mr. Speaker: Or der please. Mr. Carruthers: All those programmes, Mr. Speaker, are based on the principle of shared responsiblity. Let's not forget that. This includies the other levels of govern- ment, which I mentioned, as well as the private sector and the public.1 The provincial government cannot single-handedly solve all the housing problems which exist in this province. Financially it would be an impossibiity. This year alone, the province has increased the provincial housing budget from $101 million to $284 million- Mr. Shulman: But the government doesn't spend Most of it, Mr. Carruthers:-and it is expected this figure wil1 double again in 1976. Mr. Stokes: I the last three ycars $130 million remainet unspent. Mm. Carruthers: Last year- and this bas been eferrer to before today-the federal gov- crment returnet $130 million ofour own tax dlars for housing Tis year we have been ttitat the federmal gernment, im spite of its wli e-openh immigration pol- icy, wicb is floodmig vast numbers of people into this area, will actually reduce its allocation of funds for this use- Mr. Shulman.: That is not true. They are increasing it. Mr. Carruthers:-from $78 million in 1974 to only $50.4 million in 1975 for socially assisted housing in the lower- income field. Mr. Shulman: The member bas been listening to unreli- able sources. Mr. Carruthers: Socially assisted housing, as the pro- vincial government recog- nizes, is the area of greatest need; I think we all recognize that fact. This group is made up of lower and moderate income-earners, thoseearmning $12,000 a year or less. These are the people hardest hit by rising costs. The federal government bas seen fit to make other cuts. Funds for non-profit rental housing have been reduced by $9 million and money for land assembly and development bas been cut by $20 million. The neighbourhood improve- ment plan loans have been reduced by $7 million, from $9 million to $2 million, which is more than three-quarters. One of the major reasons, Mr. Speaker, that this province requires so much new housing is because of immigration, as I mentioned before. Of all the immigrants who come to Canada, 75 per cent or more indicate Ontario as their first choice to start a new life. And why? I don't need to answer that-we know why. Mr. Shulman: Because they can't speak French. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Carruthers: It's be- cause of our favourable econ- omic and cultural environ- ment that approximately 60,000 new citizens-as I said before-come each year to this area of the province and Metropolitan Toronto. That means we have to provide housing for these 60,000 new people every year. The federal government controls immi- rration, and yet it does not see t to provide this province with the necessary funds to bouse these new citizens. We are faced with problems from the local rhunicipalities. A few municipalities are hesitant about a pproving housing because of the educa- tion costs and the social services to accommodate more population. Under our present provincial housing policy-and this is apparently unkown to a large number of municipalities, although directives have been sent out-when a municipality accepts a new development which is low in assessment yieid the grant rate is in- For )aniiefor OA bouses proposed in Oshawa, the Ministrv of Education would pay 95 per cent to the annual capital debt charges for sehool facilities. They weren't aware of that fact. But the are hesitant, and I can understand this from a munic- ipal point of view. There's that feeling that they are going to be left holding the bag. And certainly with all service costs rising, you can appreciate the feeling of municipal councils: "What would happen if sud- denly the province and the federal government withdrew and left us with the costs of servicing all this new hous- ing? " Education, of course, is a major cost in any new housing development; and few munici- palities appear to be aware of the programme of the pro- vince. However, I feel the real reason is unwillingness of middle- and upper-income communities to accept as neighbours people of lesser economie means. I don't think that it is a serious problem, but it does come into the picture. Because people of low and moderate incomes do not live in thfese communities, they have no political base from which to influence local policies. Continued Next Week CdORPS, Buyin or Selng? If You Need a Saety Check Cowýrne )to s!l We Are a Licensed Motor Vehicle Inspection Service Centre We Offer Complete Automobile Service à 5 5 0 c ,ïE ï5*T R E R. W. Joh So Enterprises 160 Church St. Bowmanville 623-4601